Would you consider yourself to be a good person?

[RSiscoe]

**Graven Images: **

Question: Does the Bible contradict itself? Certainly you will say that the Bible does not contradict itself. Would you agree, then, that if there were an apparent contradiction in the Bible, it is based on a misunderstanding of what is meant, and not an actual contradiction? I thought so. With that in mind, let’s see what the Bible says about “graven images”. First we will start with Exodus 20:

In Chapter 20 of Exodus, we read: "I am the Lord thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt not have strange gods before me. Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth. Thou shalt not adore them, nor serve them. I am the Lord thy God, mighty, jealous, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the fourth generation of them that hate me" (vs. 1-5).

The underlined portion above is used by some show that “graven images” are forbidden by the Bible. They will often use this to show that having statues is contrary to the Bible. But is that really what the above passage means? If it is, then we have an explicit contradiction between what we just read, and what the Bible says just 3 pages later, in Exodus 25.

In this chapter, God would be contradicting Himself, when he commands the Israelites to: **“make also two Cherubim’s of beaten gold, and place them on the two sides of the oracle. Let one cherubim be on the one side and the other on the other. Let them cover both sides of the propitiatory, spreading their wings, and covering the oracle, and let them look one towards the other, their faces being turned towards the propitiatory wherewith the ark is to be covered” (Exodus 25:18-20). **

First, God tells them not to make a graven image of anything in Heaven, then He tells them to make a graven image of something in Heaven. Is this a contradiction? It is only a contradiction if one reads Exodus 20 without considering the context. When the context is considered, there is no contradiction.

What is the context? The context of Exodus 20, is that they are not to “adore” the graven image. The point of the commandment is that they should not make an image to worship; it does not forbid the making of a “graven image”. If Exodus, Chapter 20, forbids the making of an image, then the Bible contradicts itself, which we know is not possible.

Later, in Exodus, Chapter 37, we read where the Israelites did indeed follow God’s command and made the “graven images” of the cherubim. "Two Cherubim’s also of beaten gold, which he set on the two sides of the propitiatory: One Cherubim in the top of one side, and the other Cherubim in the top of the other side: two Cherubim’s at the two ends of the propitiatory, spreading their wings, and covering the propitiatory, and looking one towards the other, and towards it" (Exodus 37:7-9. Also See Hebrews 9:5).

More “graven images”: If you read the account of how God commanded the Israelites to decorate their Temple, they are told to have many “graven images” on the walls: images of many things that are “in heaven and on earth”. This again show that God only forbids making a “graven image” to worship; He does not forbid making graven images, in itselft, but even encourages it. God even commanded them to make graven images, and to place them in His Holy Temple.

And Solomon began to build the house of the Lord in Jerusalem, in mount Moria, which had been shown to David his father, in the place which David had prepared… and the gold of the plates with which he overlaid the house, and the beams thereof, and the posts, and the walls, and the floors was of the finest: and he graved Cherubim’s on the walls…He made also in the house of the holy of holies two Cherubims of image work: and he overlaid them with gold. The wings of the Cherubims were extended twenty cubits, so that one wing was five cubits long…the wings of the two Cherubim’s were spread forth, and were extended twenty cubits: and they stood upright on their feet, and their faces were turned towards the house without" (2 Chronicles 3).

"And of the altar of incense, he gave the purest gold: and to make the likeness of the chariot of the Cherubim’s spreading their wings, and covering the Ark of the Covenant. All these things, said he, came to me written by the hand of the Lord that I might understand all the works of the pattern" (1 Cronicles 28:18-19.

continue…

 

[RSiscoe]

We also have the example of God commanding Moses to make a “brazen serpent” (graven image of a snake!!!) and then to place it on a pole. If a person was bitten by a snake, they were to look upon the “serpent on the pole” and they would be healed. Now, I have a question for you. What if, for example, the Pope were to commanded Catholics to make a “brazen serpent” (a snake) and put it on a pole? And what if he declared that if they became ill, all that would be required for them to do in order to be healed was to look upon this “snake”? Can you imagine the protest that would arise against the Catholic Church for such “idolatry”? Yet this is exactly what God commanded Moses to do, and it is recorded in the Bible for all to see.

"And the Lord said to him: Make a brazen serpent, and set it up for a sign: whosoever being struck shall look upon it, shall live. Moses therefore made a brazen serpent, and set it up for a sign: which when they that were bitten looked upon, they were healed" (Numbers 21:8-9).

We now know that this “serpent on a pole” represented Jesus on the cross. It was a figure of Christ Crucified, and of the efficacy of a lively faith in Him, against the bites of the hellish serpent - the devil.

Now, I would ask you to honestly tell me if the Bible condemns making “graven images” (i.e. having statues), or if it condemns making a graven image for the purpose of worshiping. If you say it condemned the making, then how do you explain that God commanded the Israelites to make statues to be placed in the temple?

If you are sincere, you will admit that having statues is not contrary to the Bible. If you are not sincere, you will continue to try and justify your obvious misinterpretation. Which will it be?

 

[sweetchuck]

New Heart:

Don’t laugh too loud.:tsktsk: Do you not know that conceit is the height of ignorance?

I don’t laugh. My reaction is one of pity.
I pity that so many of you think that the Church that Christ Himself established and sent the Holy Spirit upon is telling lies.
I pity that you miss the graces of 5 wonderful sacraments.
I pity that you ignore the true message of John 6 in ignoring the foretelling of the Eucharist.
I pity that you do not eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood.
I pity that you do not fully understand the sacrifice of Christ, a living sacrifice in which he gives his own life as the Paschal Lamb in our Passover feast, who is physically present everyday into the hands of the priest on the altar. Body, blood, soul and divinity, disguised as ordinary bread.
New Heart:

Which RCC lie are you referring to?
The one about works or the one about actually committing cannibalism which Jesus never taught? … It is shed, you can’t EAT shed blood!

I pity that you are among those who murmer, “This saying is hard; who can accept it?” (Jn. 6:60b)

The story of Jesus’ sacrifice without the Eucharist is like pretending there was no cross at the crucifixion.

“But you say works!” “But you don’t believe in the rapture!” “But you are ‘ignorant’!”

Who cares? Is it not God who decides? You miss SO much not being Catholic. Swallow your pride, set aside your hatred of us and come to our (and your) Paschal feast (Mass) and watch, and see if your eyes do not convince you.

 

[Stephen-Maguire]

New Heart:

Which RCC lie are you referring to?
The one about works or the one about actually committing cannibalism which Jesus never taught?

Make up your mind, are we cannibals or are we merly eating bread ?

I thought you didn’t believe in Transubstanciation ?

By calling us cannibals you freely admit that transubstanciation does take place.

 

[Gratias_Grace]

New Heart:

Which RCC lie are you referring to?
The one about works or the one about actually committing cannibalism which Jesus never taught? Hebrews 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
I would say here that Jesus shed His blood as a ransom for many. Mark 10:45 For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many. It is shed, you can’t EAT shed blood!
Mt 20:28; Lu 22:26-27; Joh 13:14; Php 2:5-8; Heb 5:8; Isa 53:10-12; Da 9:24,26; 2Co 5:21; Ga 3:13; 1Ti 3:4-6; Tit 2:14; 1Pe 1:19

Oh, what a post from you, New Heart! http://pages.prodigy.net/indianahawkeye/newpage10/10.gif

You are working very hard to try to make catholism look like the wrong idea, but your work are in wain: http://pages.prodigy.net/rogerlori1/emoticons/walking.gif

About works: Our position on this topic has to do with how we look at** justification**. The greek word for “to justify” is dikaioo. Dikaioo means both “to **declare ** rightous” and “to make rightous”.

Protestants only see the juridical “to declare”. Catholichs see both. When we are baptized we legally belongs to God, our Father (sins washed away), who has done something to us. We are made His adopted children. We become the brothers and sisters of Jesus.

Jesus tells us to love. “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.” (John 13.35-35)

We know that love sometimes is hard work. Look what St.Paul tells us here: “— remembering before our God and Father your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ.” (1.Tess 1:3)

To have a **new heart ** is to be transformed by God in baptizm; - to be **declared ** and made rightous (the doble meaning of the greek word dikaioo).

God workes and so do we, by His grace!

About Jesu blood: Yes it’s right that He shed it for many. But why did he do so? He did it to give us the right to eternal life if we want that. As the second Adam He did it to heal what the first Adam had broken. If we don’t want to participate in the new life Jesus won for us, we don’t have to do that, but Jesus says it this way: “Very truly, I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.” (John 6:53)

Where do we find his flesh and blood to eat and drink? **We find it in the Eucarist! **

If we don’t participate in the Eucaristic meal, we have no life in us according to John 6:53.

I would not have accused TTM to be a lier about catholic faith if I were you… The word “cannibalism”, as you use, - do you know of someone who would like you to belive that the real precence in the Eucarist is a lie? I have heard of someone, but **that one ** isn’t worth my time to pronounce his name.

Of course you have read about the Eucaristic miracles before. Perhaps it is time to review them?

therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/lanciano.html

This tread has a strange heading: “Would you consider yourself to be a good person?” My answer to that question is: I am a sinner who try to be good by the GRACE of God.

Blessings!

G.Grace

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

**Graven Images: **

In Chapter 20 of Exodus, we read: "I am the Lord thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt not have strange gods before me. Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth. Thou shalt not adore them, nor serve them. I am the Lord thy God, mighty, jealous, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the fourth generation of them that hate me" (vs. 1-5).

The underlined portion above is used by some show that “graven images” are forbidden by the Bible. They will often use this to show that having statues is contrary to the Bible. But is that really what the above passage means? If it is, then we have an explicit contradiction between what we just read, and what the Bible says just 3 pages later, in Exodus 25.

In this chapter, God would be contradicting Himself, when he commands the Israelites to: "make also two Cherubim’s of beaten gold, and place them on the two sides of the oracle. Let one cherubim be on the one side and the other on the other. Let them cover both sides of the propitiatory, spreading their wings, and covering the oracle, and let them look one towards the other, their faces being turned towards the propitiatory wherewith the ark is to be covered" (Exodus 25:18-20).

First, God tells them not to make a graven image of anything in Heaven, then He tells them to make a graven image of something in Heaven. Is this a contradiction? It is only a contradiction if one reads Exodus 20 without considering the context. When the context is considered, there is no contradiction.

What is the context? The context of Exodus 20, is that they are not to “adore” the graven image. The point of the commandment is that they should not make an image to worship; it does not forbid the making of a “graven image”. If Exodus, Chapter 20, forbids the making of an image, then the Bible contradicts itself, which we know is not possible.

Later, in Exodus, Chapter 37, we read where the Israelites did indeed follow God’s command and made the “graven images” of the cherubim. "Two Cherubim’s also of beaten gold, which he set on the two sides of the propitiatory: One Cherubim in the top of one side, and the other Cherubim in the top of the other side: two Cherubim’s at the two ends of the propitiatory, spreading their wings, and covering the propitiatory, and looking one towards the other, and towards it" (Exodus 37:7-9. Also See Hebrews 9:5).

More “graven images”: If you read the account of how God commanded the Israelites to decorate their Temple, they are told to have many “graven images” on the walls: images of many things that are “in heaven and on earth”. This again show that God only forbids making a “graven image” to worship; He does not forbid making graven images, in itselft, but even encourages it. God even commanded them to make graven images, and to place them in His Holy Temple.

And Solomon began to build the house of the Lord in Jerusalem, in mount Moria, which had been shown to David his father, in the place which David had prepared… and the gold of the plates with which he overlaid the house, and the beams thereof, and the posts, and the walls, and the floors was of the finest: and he graved Cherubim’s on the walls…He made also in the house of the holy of holies two Cherubims of image work: and he overlaid them with gold. The wings of the Cherubims were extended twenty cubits, so that one wing was five cubits long…the wings of the two Cherubim’s were spread forth, and were extended twenty cubits: and they stood upright on their feet, and their faces were turned towards the house without" (2 Chronicles 3).

"And of the altar of incense, he gave the purest gold: and to make the likeness of the chariot of the Cherubim’s spreading their wings, and covering the Ark of the Covenant. All these things, said he, came to me written by the hand of the Lord that I might understand all the works of the pattern" (1 Cronicles 28:18-19.

continue…

== You forgot the pomegranates and the brazen sea and the 12 oxen - all of which are “likenesses of things on the earth”.

And are all, like the kerubim, and the bronze serpent, of non-Israelite origin.

Catholics ought to learn more about the OT background - it would do a world of good for their appreciation of Catholicism, and for their ability to defend themselves ==

 

[jeffreedy789]

this thread has been entertaining to read. i kinda hope that av1611 comes back so we can ‘reason’ with him some more…

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

New Heart:

Don’t laugh too loud.:tsktsk: Do you not know that conceit is the height of ignorance?

Luke 18:13-14 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

1 Corinthians 10:1-12 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted. Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play. Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand. Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents. Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer. Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

I must let you know that one of the cross references for the part in red is John 6, before Christ instituted the memorial of His death.

Conceit for complimenting the posters?Conceit for truth smashing false misconceptions,oke doke Conceit wouldn’t be a person coming onto a Catholic forum, misrepresenting their faith,throwing around false accusations and trying to smite them to hell. No your right that would be called humility, right?God Bless

 

[gardenswithkids]

Back to the original question: Do I consider myself to be a good person?

No. The harder I try to be a good person, the clearer I see that I can not be good unless God gives me the grace. I think He occassionally removes His grace just so I can see how lost I am without Him. And that’s when I return to God, confess my failing, and ask for His mercy and grace once more.

And yes, ***if ***I worshipped a statue of Mary, it would make me an idolater. Thank God I don’t worship those statues I keep around the house! I use them to remind me of God’s love for humanity. I use them to remind myself of what we creatures can be when God fills us with His grace. Luke 1:28, “Greeting favored one! The Lord is with you.” Luke 1:42 “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb.” Since the Bible records God sent an angel to tell Mary she was favored by God, and since the Bible records Elizabeth called Mary blessed, I believe that I am in good company in reflecting on the **Bible **and reciting the Hail Mary. Jesus liked her well enough to choose her for His mommy, so I think you should take your concerns about Catholics’ honoring Mary up with Jesus. (By the way, Jesus did follow the ten commandments perfectly, including the part about honoring his father and mother.

*Be like Jesus; honor His mother. *

 

[gardenswithkids]

Back to the original question: Do I consider myself to be a good person?

No. The harder I try to be a good person, the clearer I see that I can not be good unless God gives me the grace. I think He occassionally removes His grace just so I can see how lost I am without Him. And that’s when I return to God, confess my failing, and ask for His mercy and grace once more.

And yes, if I worshipped a statue of Mary, it would make me an idolater. Thank God I don’t worship those statues I keep around the house! I use them to remind me of God’s love for humanity. I use them to remind myself of what we creatures can be when God fills us with His grace. Luke 1:28, “Greeting favored one! The Lord is with you.” Luke 1:42 “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb.” Since God sent an angel to tell Mary she was favored by God, and since the Bible records Elizabeth calling Mary blessed, I believe that I am in good company in reciting the Hail Mary. Jesus liked her well enough to choose her for His mommy, so I think you should take your concerns about Catholics’ honoring Mary up with Jesus. (By the way, Jesus did follow the ten commandments perfectly, including the part about honoring His father and mother.)

Be like Jesus; honor His mother who is filled with His grace!