Would you leave if the church mandated communion on the toungue and kneeling?

[Cristiano]

If the Pope were to insist on COTT even for the Eastern Rites, which would not be prudent, but let’s say he did. What I’m seeing Constantine say here is that probably the Eastern Churches would leave communion and go back to Orthodoxy.

So then what type of power is that?

And how is that different from Western Catholics who leave for the same reason?

I just don’t understand the double standard.

The relationship between suis juris Churches is different than the one between a faithful an his own Church, and so it cannot be really compared. A lot of members of the Latin Church still tray to look at the relationship between suis juris Churches in the same way a faithful has to relate to his own Church and that immediately creates the animosity toward the Latinization of the Universal Church.

Just look at what happens inside the Latin Church in China with the election of bishops, there is lack of obedience but sometime for pastoral necessity the pope appears to give a token approval.

 

[TrueLight]

The relationship between suis juris Churches is different than the one between a faithful an his own Church, and so it cannot be really compared. A lot of members of the Latin Church still tray to look at the relationship between suis juris Churches in the same way a faithful has to relate to his own Church and that immediately creates the animosity toward the Latinization of the Universal Church.

I understand.

But we are all Catholic right?

I’m not saying the Pope should ever do such a thing, but I’m talking about the obedience portion.

Why does bringing a Church or group into communion, whether Eastern or Anglican Use, or what have you mean that the group gets a lot more provisions?

It’s sort of like the prodigal son syndrome.

 

[bmadamsberry]

If the Pope were to insist on COTT even for the Eastern Rites, which would not be prudent, but let’s say he did. What I’m seeing Constantine say here is that probably the Eastern Churches would leave communion and go back to Orthodoxy.

So then what type of power is that?

And how is that different from Western Catholics who leave for the same reason?

I just don’t understand the double standard.

It would be no different.

However, it is kind of like asking “What if the Pope tomorrow said that priests had to dress up as clowns for Mass”? It’s not a good question, because the Pope would only directly intervene in the Eastern Rites if he needed to (such as a rouge bishop, or maybe a horrible liturgical abuse, etc.). It’s an unspoken understanding between the Eastern Rites and the Pope. The Pope exercises more (as in more often) control over the Latin Rite because the Pope is both the Pope and the Patriarch of the West.

 

[brigid12]

As for the OP question: I do it anyway so I said no.

 

[ConstantineTG]

He has direct control over the Latin Rite, but he also has direct control over the Eastern Rites (though he does not exercise that control often, out of respect for the traditions of the East).

For example, whenever a new bishop or Patriarch is named in the Eastern Rites, it has to go before the Pope for approval. If he wanted, the Pope could reject that nomination (but, again, he rarely does this out of respect for the Eastern Rites).

You may have it backwards. The East makes him think he has that control, out of respect and love for him

Humor aside, the Pope has pastoral governance over all the Churches. Administrative power and control rests on the synod.

 

[revert_jen]

I would not leave the Church because of any change in practice.

I would leave the Church because of a change in dogma, but because the Church cannot change dogma, I will never be leaving the Church!

Amen! Alleluia!

 

[ConstantineTG]

Thanks for clarifying, because it seems as if the Pope does not have Papal Supremacy based on prior posts.

Is it just token power like the Queen of England has?

That is probably a complicated issue.

No, its not like that. Although you know what, the Queen of England, who is also Queen of Canada, can suspend Parliament and even dissolve it (thus necessitating for an election to form government). So its not true the Monarchy of Britain and the Parliament is totally powerless.

 

[revert_jen]

However, it is kind of like asking “What if the Pope tomorrow said that priests had to dress up as clowns for Mass”? It’s not a good question, because the Pope would only directly intervene in the Eastern Rites if he needed to (such as a rouge bishop, or maybe a horrible liturgical abuse, etc.).

Sorry, I just thought this typo (rouge vs. rogue) was funny.

Is a rouge bishop like a clown priest? Heeheeheeheehee.

Sorry, I’m better now.

I really like typos that make fun mental pictures.

–Jen

 

[TrueLight]

No, its not like that. Although you know what, the Queen of England, who is also Queen of Canada, can suspend Parliament and even dissolve it (thus necessitating for an election to form government). So its not true the Monarchy of Britain and the Parliament is totally powerless.

Technically yes, but if she did, guess what would happen?

Bye Bye Monarchy.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Technically yes, but if she did, guess what would happen?

Bye Bye Monarchy.

No, just a couple of years ago the Queen through the Governor General (her official representative in Canada) dissolved Parliament and elections were held in 3 months.

Remember the budget deficit just a few weeks ago there in the US? If that happened within the Commonwealth, Parliament could have been dissolved to be replaced.

The Pope can suspend a Patriarch or Bishops in an Eastern Church if they act schimatic or heretic. But he wouldn’t be changing our Liturgy. Look at it this way, the Pope asked that he be commemorated in the Divine Liturgy of all Churches in communion with him. How that is implemented is not even the same across the board. The Ukrainian Catholic Church commemorates him 4 times (that’s how much we love him! ) while the Melkites do it only once. It he had total control, he would have said where exactly in the Divine Liturgy he would be commemorated and it would be the same across all 14 Byzantine Rite Churches.

 

[theistgal]

Originally Posted by MarcusAndreas
I’m just wondering who said yes.

I did, for the reason previously stated.

 

[theistgal]

Sorry, I just thought this typo (rouge vs. rogue) was funny.

Is a rouge bishop like a clown priest? Heeheeheeheehee.

Sorry, I’m better now.

I really like typos that make fun mental pictures.

–Jen

LOL!

Yes, if a rouge bishop ever showed up in our parish I would probably just give up!

 

[Irishgal49]

They don’t and that is very, very scary.

No more scary than trying to legislate a posture over another.

I’m very sorry for churches who have all but banned kneeling. In our church we have about a dozen or more people who kneel and no one gives it a 2nd thought. Kneel if you wish. Also about 90% or more receive on the tongue. I guess we must be the exception.

 

[Irishgal49]

I did, for the reason previously stated.

I voted yes because I wouldn’t feel comfortable standing at the altar rail. I’d go across town and join my friends at the Byzantine (forgive me if I spelled it wrong) Church. I’ve visited there before and it’s beautiful and the people are friendly. I just like the priest and friends I have in my home parish.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

No, just a couple of years ago the Queen through the Governor General (her official representative in Canada) dissolved Parliament and elections were held in 3 months.

Yes and no. Yes the Queen has the power to disolve Parliament but the Prime Minister alone decides the timing of a dissolution and general election and is the one to advise the Queen to disolve.
If the Queen dissolved the Parliament without the advise/consent of the Prime Minister all holy heck would break loose and the courts would have to get involved. It wouldn’t be pretty. So while its possible (though debatable, hence courts would be involved) that the Queen could do it without the consent of the Prime Minister it would not be advisable outside of extreme circumstances.
And it is very similiar to the Pope’s relationship to the Eastern Churches. To impose from the top down would not be a smart move.

 

[bmadamsberry]

It he had total control, he would have said where exactly in the Divine Liturgy he would be commemorated and it would be the same across all 14 Byzantine Rite Churches.

Not necessarily. He could have total control, and yet not want to exercise it (hence, leaving it up to the Rites to decide where to commemorate him).

 

[cccw2009]

No, I would not leave.

The only thing that will cause me to leave the Church is if they allow women “priests”.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Not necessarily. He could have total control, and yet not want to exercise it (hence, leaving it up to the Rites to decide where to commemorate him).

I think this is the part where people become presumptuous about the Pope’s authority. Even in the Latin Rite the Pope doesn’t go about steamrolling through diocese after diocese imposing his will.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying he doesn’t have authority. I’m just saying that people seem to misunderstand what is actually meant by his authority and make it more than what it is.

 

[bmadamsberry]

I think this is the part where people become presumptuous about the Pope’s authority. Even in the Latin Rite the Pope doesn’t go about steamrolling through diocese after diocese imposing his will.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying he doesn’t have authority. I’m just saying that people seem to misunderstand what is actually meant by his authority and make it more than what it is.

Agreed. In fact, I can’t think of the last time the Pope told an individual bishop what to do in his own dicoese.

Maybe the Pope could do as Patriarch what he does as Bishop of Rome, hand over a lot of the administration to someone else. I think one problem is that the Pope is so closely associated with the Latin Rite, that it is hard for Latin Rites to think of him as Pope of the Catholic Church, and it might also be hard for the Eastern Rites to think of him as their Pope, instead of someone intimatly linked with the Latin Rite.

 

[kildare]

After 2000 years of often very vigourous theological discourse not to mention the recent problems regarding the sex abuse, to then leave the church on a point as trivial as this would only reflect on the hitherto shallowness the apostates faith.