Would you like to see a phasing out of the Novus Ordo Missae leading to a return to only the TLM?

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Brian777 said:
but the Mason was Cardinal Bugnini
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Did the Vatican ever say that? I know there was a lot of gossip about this, but I thought the reason for his dismissal was never stated. I understand he had many other issues.
 
lovesMary said:
I was curious, is it is the hope of anyone here eventually have the Church totally revert back to pre-Vatican II liturgies, eventually eliminating the newer form of the Mass.
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Maybe it’s my age (born in '61), but why can’t they co-exist peacefully? I just left 20 years of evangelical churches deep in competition with each other (the best music, the best preacher, best youth group, ect.).
The Catholic Church does not need need that (Norvus Ordo against TLM).
My newly confirmed daughter (18) is interested in attending a Latin Mass service up in PA at the end of this month. She has never been to one. I don’t tell her it’s ‘the old Mass’, I just say it is the ‘Latin Mass’.
If the Church wants to re-incorperate TLM, let it be done with excitment and interest that will produce love for it. Young Catholics might surprise you.
 
Brian777 said:
ive never been able to find the names of the Lutherans, but the Mason was Cardinal Bugnini
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That is nothing but garbage.

I feel sorry for any Catholic who actually believes that Archbishop Anibale Bugnini (or any Catholic ordinary for that matter) was or is a Freemason. To believe an unfounded rumor like that boggles my mind. Then again I suppose they WANT to believe that sorta garbage as it feeds their hatred of the normative OF of the Mass.

I also feel badly about the damage to the Church they do by saying he was one. What a horrible lie – all to fuel such septic agendas.
 
Brian777 said:
ive never been able to find the names of the Lutherans, but the Mason was Cardinal Bugnini
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Spiller said:
That is nothing but garbage.

I feel sorry for any Catholic who actually believes that Cardinal Bugnini (or any Catholic ordinary for that matter) was or is a Freemason. To believe an unfounded rumor like that boggles my mind. Then again I suppose they WANT to believe that sorta garbage as it feeds their hatred of the normative OF of the Mass.

I also feel badly about the damage to the Church they do by saying he was one. What a horrible lie – all to fuel such septic agendas.
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I know I noted it earlier in the thread, but I thoguht I’d just repeat it.

Bugnini was not elevated to the cardinalate. In fact, for most of the years he worked at the Vatican he was only a priest
 
Spiller said:
That is nothing but garbage.

I feel sorry for any Catholic who actually believes that Cardinal Bugnini (or any Catholic ordinary for that matter) is a Freemason.

I also feel badly about the damage to the Church they do by sying he was one. What a horrible lie.
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Whether or not you believe the Cardinal was a freemason, there were contributions made by non-Catholics to the writing of the NO.
 
Brian777 said:
ive never been able to find the names of the Lutherans, but the Mason was Cardinal Bugnini
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Spiller said:
That is nothing but garbage.

I feel sorry for any Catholic who actually believes that Cardinal Bugnini (or any Catholic ordinary for that matter) was or is a Freemason. To believe an unfounded rumor like that boggles my mind. Then again I suppose they WANT to believe that sorta garbage as it feeds their hatred of the normative OF of the Mass.

I also feel badly about the damage to the Church they do by saying he was one. What a horrible lie – all to fuel such septic agendas.
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catherine_m said:
Whether or not you believe the Cardinal was a freemason, there were contributions made by non-Catholics to the writing of the NO.
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What do you mean by “contributions?” Did non-Catholics attend some of the sessions as observers/advisers? Sure. What’s your point?

Please don’t try to muddy the water. To suggest the Pauline Mass is the product of Protestants and a Catholic “cardinal” who was also a Freemason is a horrible lie.
 
Spiller said:
What do you mean by “contributions?” Did non-Catholics attend some of the sessions as observers/advisers? Sure. What’s your point?

Please don’t try to muddy the water. To suggest the Pauline Mass is the product of Protestants and a Catholic “cardinal” who was also a Freemason is a horrible lie.
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They assisted in the writing of the NO.
I did not say the Cardinal was a freemason, although I have heard on many occasions that he was. Whether or not that is true - I don’t know. Please don’t put words in my mouth. 😉
 
catherine_m said:
They assisted in the writing of the NO.
I did not say the Cardinal was a freemason, although I have heard on many occasions that he was. Whether or not that is true - I don’t know. Please don’t put words in my mouth.
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I didn’t put words into anyone’s mouth – please don’t suggest that I did… I said that suggesting that ABp. Bugnini was a freemason is a lie. You responded that “there were contributions made by non-Catholics to the writing of the NO.” Not sure why you felt the need to do that, but I wanted to underscore what I had just said – “To suggest the Pauline Mass is the product of Protestants and a Catholic “cardinal” who was also a Freemason is a horrible lie.”

I am well aware that non-Catholics attended some of the sessions. No, I don’t believe they “assisted” in the preparation of the Pauline Mass. Although I’m sure some will suggest that just being there was a form of assistance.

In the end this is absolute craziness. Perpetuating a rumor like this is nasty, nasty, nasty!
 
Spiller said:
That is nothing but garbage.
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Actually it is well-documented but who wants to listen to the GrandMason (or whatever you call him) of a Lodge? 🙂

But even if he were a FreeMason, what would or wouldn’t that do to the Novus Ordo? Don’t forget, there were six Protestants who helped Bugnini with the text of the Mass. It’s still valid, isn’t it? What you feel better if the Catholic bishops had written it? I don’t know about you, but I’d feel better if someone at the Vatican had translated what Paul VI actually promulgated instead of the ICEL. There’s your real problem.
 
No, I do not think the NO should be phased out. as much as I love the TLM, I feel both forms have their appeal and their own place among the faithful.
 
No, but I would certainly like to see the phasing out of the “My Mass is better than your Mass.” discussion.

John
 
KathleenElsie said:
I agree with you.

I am however a realist. The TLM as we see it now is mostly without the abuses that could be found in the 1950’s and 1960’s. The reason is that those that follow the TLM are there because we want to be. No one is being forced to celebrate the TLM that does not respect it. This is my reason that the TLM should not be in each and every parish.

The thing that bothers me with the OF is that there are many people and even priests that that seem not respect the Mass IMHO.

For many of the Diocesan priests the priesthood is both a JOB and a vocation. They do not take a vow of poverty. They get scheduled days off (we no longer have Mass or adoration on Wed and the priest is not at RCIA because it is his day off), they can and do own property and all the other benefits of the secular society.

The religious orders take the vow of poverty. They are like the stay at home wife and mother. Unpaid with no true days off. But, IMHO the future benefits are greater then the drawbacks. They can watch the “family” grow and look to the Hope of Heaven.
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OH SAINTS PRESERVE US!! Dear Kathleen Elsie, would you tell me what the abuses were in TLM during th 50s and 60s? I grew up with this form of the Mass. I don’t know of ANY abuses, so if you could enlighten me, I would appreciate it. I just don’t understand, according to the Trads. the NO is rife with abuses now. Now I hear the TLM was rife with them back when I was a kid… I JUST DON’T UNDERSTAND WHERE PEOPLE GET THEIR INFO. !!!🙂 Peace.
 
elt1956 said:
OH SAINTS PRESERVE US!! Dear Kathleen Elsie, would you tell me what the abuses were in TLM during th 50s and 60s? I grew up with this form of the Mass. I don’t know of ANY abuses, so if you could enlighten me, I would appreciate it. I just don’t understand, according to the Trads. the NO is rife with abuses now. Now I hear the TLM was rife with them back when I was a kid… I JUST DON’T UNDERSTAND WHERE PEOPLE GET THEIR INFO. !!!🙂 Peace.
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"The Old Mass

Stop! Take off the rose-colored glasses and face a reality of 20/20 hindsight. I began serving “the old Mass” in 1939. I am now 73 years old, 45 years a priest, having begun my seminary studies in 1950. As a kid knowing the perfect recitation of all the Latin Mass responses, we dealt with mumbled praying of many priests. In the old days there were parishes that were known as “whiz churches”: Sunday Mass, in and out in 20 minutes.

Young priests were told the motto: “Get them out fast”. In college I was too embarrassed to invite my dormitory roommates to Sunday Mass - the blatant lack of piety was a scandal. Rarely do I look back and remember edifying experiences as being the norm. But, yes, there were some.

In my experience today the gains outshine the losses. Yes, I know where craziness exists and horror stories are a fact. But the gains were tremendous. Yes, we are still growing/becoming what we should be. Change begets excesses – the pendulum swings from one extreme to the other, yet eventually resting in the middle… The recent writings and promulgations of our Holy Father give us hope, e.g., the General Instruction of the Roman Missal (USCCB Website), Sacrosanctum Concilium, and Ecclesia de Eucharistia.

Don’t despair. If there is craziness in your parish, pray for your bishop, write lovingly to the offending priest and copy it to the diocesan liturgical committee. Don’t you be crazy too – document accurately the observation of misdirection.

Having been a pastor for 27 years, in a variety of multicultural parishes, I have witnessed, in these changing times, the evolution of a profoundly rich contemporary Mass that is celebrated within the rules.

Would I go back to pre-Vatican II days? No way. I reverence the past, but live and work in the richness of the present, championing orthodoxy and “working to beat hell!”

Be patient. Treat all with charity, pray unceasingly and know that truth will conquer. As the Adoremus Bulletin tells us: “The Holy Father asks bishops and liturgists to build on the ‘riches’ of the reform while also pruning ‘serious abuses’ with ‘prudent firmness’”. (“The Foundations of Liturgical Reform”, March 2004)

Father Andre J. Meluskey
Senior Priest, St. Patrick Church
Carlisle, Pennsylvania"

adoremus.org/0704ReadersForum.html
 
Ok Spiller, if we are going to quote clergy, let’s quote 'em 👍

Probably would get better opinions from them than laity anyhow, huh ?
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Alluding to the composition of the New Mass, Father Duggan states: "It is enough to compare the text of this Missal (the Missal of 1570) with the Novus Ordo of 1969 to see that there has been a revolutionary change (November AD2000).
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Fr Duggan’s contention that the liturgical change is revolutionary is corroborated by Father Joseph Gelineau SJ whose credentials for commenting on the New Mass could scarcely be more authoritative. Fr Gelineau was one of the most influential of Archbishop Bugnini’s Consilium which was charged with composing the New Mass after Vatican II. He was described by the Archbishop as one of “the great masters of the international liturgical world” (The Reform of the Liturgy, page 221). Archbishop Bugnini, it will be recalled, was the principal architect of the Novus Ordo.
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In his book Demain la Liturgie (The Liturgy Tomorrow), Fr Gelineau observes: “Let those, who, like myself have known and sung a Latin Gregorian High Mass remember it if they can. Let them compare it with the Mass that we now have. Not only the words, the melodies, and some of the gestures are different. To tell the truth it is a different liturgy of the Mass. This needs to be said without ambiguity: the Roman Rite as we knew it no longer exists (Le Rite Romain tel que nous l’avons connu n’existe plus). It has been destroyed ** (il est détruit)” (pages 9-10).
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Monsignor Klaus Gamber agrees with Fr Gelineau that the Roman Rite has been destroyed. Monsignor writes: “[A]t this critical juncture the traditional Roman Rite, more than one thousand years old, has been destroyed” (The Reform of the Roman Liturgy, page 99).
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Father Kenneth Baker SJ, who is editor of the Homiletic & Pastoral Review, concurs with Fr Duggan that the liturgical changes have been revolutionary. Lamenting the numerous changes imposed on the people which they scarcely had time to digest, Fr Baker wrote: “We have been overwhelmed with changes in the Church at all levels but it is the liturgical revolution which touches all of us intimately and immediately” (February 1979).
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Cardinal Ratzinger claims that our ecclesial malaise is attributable, at least in part, to the condition of the Liturgy. He writes: “I am convinced that the crisis in the Church that we are experiencing is to a large extent due to the disintegration of the Liturgy” (Milestones, page 148).
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