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ProVobis
Guest
Why poor? My television’s running downstairs while I do housework upstairs. Should I hire a maid so I could watch the boob tube with you?
Would you like to see a phasing out of the Novus Ordo Missae leading to a return to only the TLM?
- Status
D
Deacon_Ed_B
Guest
The solution is easy. Put a TV upstairs… Where is all of this taking us?Why poor? My television’s running downstairs while I do housework upstairs. Should I hire a maid so I could watch the boob tube with you?
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B
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ProVobis
Guest
That is true, but once they got going with it, there was no stop. But that’s what happens when you relax rules. When they increased the speed limit from 40 to 50 mph in my area, the police disappeared as well.
P
ProVobis
Guest
Hopefully taking us to where we throw all our TV sets out the window. We can get just as much or more propaganda on internet.
D
Deacon_Ed_B
Guest
You got that right. But I do love to watch Fox news.Hopefully taking us to where we throw all our TV sets out the window. We can get just as much or more propaganda on internet.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B
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pnewton
Guest
Not yet. I only get one periodical. Three guesses which one. (Hint: read the top header here.) I have been a subscriber for over ten years, since I have been Catholic.
J
JReducation
Guest
Do you have EWTN? They’re going to repeat the mass this evening. They covered it very well, without the nonsense of the secular stations.
Yes the Pope did give communion in the hand, there were sisters who did not wear veils and the prayers were in English.
No, none of it was a distraction. I was fascinated by the Communion of Saints and the unity of the Church, especially by the fact that the diverse diocesan priests there and the diverse religious communities all form part of the same mystical body that was being received at communion.
It’s the theology of it that kept my attention focussed on what was really important.
JR
J
JReducation
Guest
Saint Rafael
You sound like a very angry person whose idea of the Church is devoid of all joy and love.
Here was an opportunity for all American Catholics to celebrate their faith and rejoice that our faith is being proclaimedd not only before our compatriots, but also to the world and you have no sense of joy over that fact.
You’re stuck on your rules and not on the faith of the Church.
You’ve spent most of today and yesterday condemming this and that, judging this pope or that one.
Telling everyone what the Pope should be doing.
It’s a pity to see someone with such a sad spirit.
Is Catholicism really where you want to be?
JR
You sound like a very angry person whose idea of the Church is devoid of all joy and love.
Here was an opportunity for all American Catholics to celebrate their faith and rejoice that our faith is being proclaimedd not only before our compatriots, but also to the world and you have no sense of joy over that fact.
You’re stuck on your rules and not on the faith of the Church.
You’ve spent most of today and yesterday condemming this and that, judging this pope or that one.
Telling everyone what the Pope should be doing.
It’s a pity to see someone with such a sad spirit.
Is Catholicism really where you want to be?
JR
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ProVobis
Guest
John Allen was the commentator on CNN. I think you will agree with me he’s pretty fair, wouldn’t you?
Oh, and by the way, deacon, you can get FOX News and a whole ton of other TV stations through this link here:
pages.tvunetworks.com/channels/
EWTN is free as well, though I admit, I missed the last two EF Masses on there too. Sorry.
A
Aragorn1
Guest
How dare you equate the Catholic Mass with a Protestant service. And I like how you railroad Aquinas into agreeing with you when, conveniently for you, he’s not here now and thus can’t challenge your base attacks on the Ordinary Form of the Roman Missal.
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ProVobis
Guest
Well, then, many here can pick up where he left off. No problem.
Cmon, though, you surely must have read comparisons of the New Mass with Lutheran, Calvanists, and other forms of worship before though, haven’t you? It shouldn’t be THAT daring.
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CreatioNova
Guest
As to the OP - no I wouldnt want to see that happen. Both forms of the mass proved something that different people at different times need.
S
saint_rafael
Guest
It is interesting that you cannot refute anything I said so you go for a attack on my “bitterness”.Saint Rafael
You sound like a very angry person whose idea of the Church is devoid of all joy and love.
Here was an opportunity for all American Catholics to celebrate their faith and rejoice that our faith is being proclaimedd not only before our compatriots, but also to the world and you have no sense of joy over that fact.
You’re stuck on your rules and not on the faith of the Church.
You’ve spent most of today and yesterday condemming this and that, judging this pope or that one.
Telling everyone what the Pope should be doing.
It’s a pity to see someone with such a sad spirit.
Is Catholicism really where you want to be?
JR
Fist of all that is nonsense. I love Catholicism with a passion. To leave the one true Church of Jesus would be to damn myself to eternal destruction.
I am not bitter because I know how the story ends. I know the promise of Mary and the restoration is coming this century and I hope to see it barring any worldwide chastisement from God. Joy and peace come from the true peace of Christ which I enjoy.
**
I believe in truth and I love truth. I believe in objective truth. I cannot in my conscience ignore what is error and wrong. I will aswer to God one day and I must be honest because of my knowledge of Church history, tradition, and the magisterium.
I want the Pope to be like the Popes throught Church history guiding and protecting truth, dogma, and doctrine. What you call rules are the infallible truths of religion and the laws of God.
The fact is that the Pope has done things contrary to the Catholic faith and tradition. The faith and magisterium are more important than the individuals in office. There is a doctrinal reason and truth why 263 Popes did not step into a Jewish synogogue before Popes JP II and BXVI.
What makes Novus Ordo Catholics uncomfortable is that it cannot be denied anymore that there are two religions in the Church. The true Catholic religion and the false religion of Vatican II and modernism that entredafter VII.**
S
saint_rafael
Guest
IndeedWell, then, many here can pick up where he left off. No problem.
Cmon, though, you surely must have read comparisons of the New Mass with Lutheran, Calvanists, and other forms of worship before though, haven’t you? It shouldn’t be THAT daring.
Look at the writings of the Protestant revolutionaries.They hated that the Mass was a sacrafice because they didn’t believe in it.
They wanted a liturgical service that was communal. They wanted to celebrate it as a meal.
Look at their demands:
The priest should face the people.
There is no fundamental difference between priesthood and laity.
Communion in the hand
No kneeling
No altar rails
Communion under two species
service in the vernacular
We gave them what they wanted in the Novus Ordo. Pope Paul VI introduced it for ecumenical reasons. He thought Protestants would flock to the Church if it was similar to Protestantism. I f the meal was emphasized and the sacrafice deemphasized.
Right that is how’we will get them.
We have to biuld so many Churches for all them who are flocking.
The sad story is that they did not come. There only has been a mass exodus from the Church to Protestantism.
**
Luther knew the truth. He was brilliant. How prophetic he was when he said that if you destroy the Mass, you destroy the Catholic Church.
Lex Orandi. Lex Credendi.**
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ProVobis
Guest
Actually many of these points were brought up at the Synod of Pistoia in 1786 and were flatly rejected by the Vatican.Indeed
They hated that the Mass was a sacrafice because they didn’t believe in it.
They wanted a liturgical service that was communal. They wanted to celebrate it as a meal.
Look at their demands:
The priest should face the people.
There is no fundamental difference between priesthood and laity.
Communion in the hand
No kneeling
No altar rails
Communion under two species
service in the vernacular
Looks like we were born too late.
J
JReducation
Guest
I would strongly recommend against making assumptions and it’s an interesting statement that you said, “my bitterness.” I said that you sounded angry. You made the Freudian slip and owened the bitterness.
No one is asking you to leave it. I asked the question if you are sure this is where you belong, because you said in a previous post that you find nothing good about the Church.
I have never seen a saint claim that the know how the story ends. All of the saints have professed faith in God’s love and mercy and pray that it will come soon. You claim to knowing that this is coming this century is contrary to what the scriptures say, “No one knows the day nor the hour.”
Knowledge cannot replace love, especially love toward all people. Those great men and women who came before us loved truth so much that they also saw hunger, discrimination, injustice, families in crisis, abandoned youth, the value of prayer and discernment, the value of contemplation and solitude. Why don’t you start a thread on these truths and how to pray, how to listen to the Spirit, how to serve Christ in the poorest of the poor.
St. Francis said that faith is not about what we want. It’s about embracing the cross and prayer.
St. Vincent said that it is not about what we want, but about what Christ wants. Christ wants us to make the streets of the city our mission.
St. Elizabeth Ann Seton said it was not about what we want, but about living in joy knowing that God is with us, despite our circumstances.
There is no doctrine against visiting a synogogue. The reason it was never done was because of the antagonism between the two groups. By the way, John XXIII invited the Jews to Vatican II and he is now on the fast track to canonization.
If it’s not about the individual, just about the faith and the magisterium, how can there be a magisterium without Peter? Christ did not build his Church upon a council, he built it upon the faith of Peter. “You are Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church.” The person who occupies his chair has always been the most important person in the Church, for where there is Peter, there is the Church.
What makes any rational person uncomfortable is that you are playing the role of Satan. You are divinding the Church into two. Fortunately, the gates of hell shall not prevail against the Church or against Peter.
JR
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Channy
Guest
I must apologize maybe its my protestant roots here, but how does any of the NO changes invalidate the mass? If it does what about the EO divine liturgy? What about masses before there were tabernacles to be moved? What about when Christ instituted the Sacrament? Are they all invalid atrocities?
Why did Jerome translate Scripture into Latin? Because Latin was becoming a popular vernacular language. And you are upset about altar girls? Are women so inferior that they should have nothing to do with celebrating the Eucharist? Early in the Church women were Deacons. Mary Magdalen sat at Christ feet. Jesus dared to talk to women when the Rabbis wouldn’t. Shouldn’t the Church reflect Her Master?
I am amazed because this whole post, no offense intended to anyone, sounds like a protestant group arguing over the baptism of the Holy Ghost. If the Pope has the Keys of the Kingdom and any of them approved the NO then it is the Ordinary form of the mass. It now has God’s approval, but the abuses do not and must be stopped or I fear St. Raffeil is right there could be another break in the Church. That is sad.
Why did Jerome translate Scripture into Latin? Because Latin was becoming a popular vernacular language. And you are upset about altar girls? Are women so inferior that they should have nothing to do with celebrating the Eucharist? Early in the Church women were Deacons. Mary Magdalen sat at Christ feet. Jesus dared to talk to women when the Rabbis wouldn’t. Shouldn’t the Church reflect Her Master?
I am amazed because this whole post, no offense intended to anyone, sounds like a protestant group arguing over the baptism of the Holy Ghost. If the Pope has the Keys of the Kingdom and any of them approved the NO then it is the Ordinary form of the mass. It now has God’s approval, but the abuses do not and must be stopped or I fear St. Raffeil is right there could be another break in the Church. That is sad.
J
JReducation
Guest
I’m going to begin with the end of your post. I agree that all abuses must stop. But not everything is an abuse. Some elements have the approval of the local bishop, the Bishop’s Conference or the Holy See.
Whether the NO was created by a group of Saints or in the Vatican’s kitchen, once the Pope has approved it, we can no longer continue to deny that the Holy Spirit was not at work here.
The liturgy is part of the Pope’s primary pastoral duties. The Holy Spirit is not going to permit a Pope to approve a liturgical form contrary to the mind of Christ or that contains anything that is sinful.
Can people still sin? Of course they can. But that is their choice, not the fault of the liturgy.
There were many sins against the liturgy before the liturgical reform. Some priests had competitions as to who could say the fastest mass in town.
Has everyone forgotten that the sexual abuse goes back to the 1950s or maybe earlier. Who was alone with the priest in the sacristy? The only ones allowed back there were altar boys and sometimes a Sister who was the sacristan.
The old liturgy did not stop people from sinning anymore than the NO.
Sin and abuses arise from choices that people make, not from the form of the mass.
As I was watching the mass at St. Patrick’s Cathedral, as soon as the Holy Father began the mass and the Cardinal greeted him, the religious broke out in applause and interrupted the flow. The Holy Father stood up and waved at them. Some people would say that this is liturgical abuse because you should not clap during mass.
We are taking the word abuse to the extreme.
We are taking the Motu Proprio to the extreme. It does not suggest that the NO be eliminated. In fact it states that it is a holy form of celebrating the mass and that it will remain the ordinary form.
Why lay people feel that they have right to push for it’s elimination, when the Church has spoken is beyond me. This is not the role of the laity.
The role of the laity is to pratice the corporal works of mercy, raise Christian families, live a life of prayer and penanc, see to it that the State acts according to the Gospel, and introduce virtue into the secular sphere.
It is not the role of the laity to take polls and determine the form of the liturgy. That’s why we have liturgists, canon lawyers, theologians and bishops. Every member of the Church must assume his or her role in the Church with a sense of responsibility and prayerfullness.
JR
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Aragorn1
Guest
The Protestants wanted these things exclusively. The Church however has emphasized the communal aspect but not to the exclusion of the sacrificial aspect. Mass is both a sacrifice and a banquet*; both an offering to God and something of which we partake and which imparts grace to us. It is a communal meal, but it is also (contrary to the “Reformers”) an unbloody re-presentation in time of the eternal Sacrifice of Calvary. The ironic thing is that even as you accuse the OF of being influenced by Protestantism you are yourself indulging in a Protestant-esque dichotomic “either/or” style of argumentation. There is no reason whatsoever to reject either of the dual dimensions of the Mass.Indeed
They hated that the Mass was a sacrafice because they didn’t believe in it.
They wanted a liturgical service that was communal. They wanted to celebrate it as a meal.
- Even The Latin Mass magazine ran an article last year against Communion in the hand, called “Bankrupting the Banquet”. So this concept should not be foreign to tradtitionalists.
I would like to know exactly how this is Protestant (besides the guilt-by-association argument that it was proposed by Protestants).
Straw man. Nowhere does the Church teach this.
Was St. Basil Protestant?
Source (emphasis mine)
Or maybe St. John Damascene?
Source (Chapter 13) (emphasis mine)
I could go on by quoting St. Cyril of Jerusalem, St John Chrysostom, St. Cyprian of Carthage, the Synod of Trullo and much more, but you get the point.
Another straw man. Where was kneeling prohibited after Vatican II?
This hardly Protestantizes the OF. Like I asked before, where were the altar rails in the early Church? If they were not found in the early Church, true this is not in itself a reason to get rid of them (that would be antiquarianism), but at the same time it should make one think twice about attributing the removal of the rails to an exclusively Protestant influence, no?
(Also in my earlier post (which you ignored), I made the point that loss of faith in the Real Presence cannot reasonably be traced to removal of altar rails.)
Again, look to the early Church and you’ll find that this was not a Protestant practice to begin with.
Well, (you guessed it) the early Church did this as well. Aramaic and Greek were the vernacular in the first couple centuries. Later on when Latin was introduced it was the predominant common language and remained so for centuries until the evolution of the Romance languages. And besides, Pope Pius XII himself, in Mediator Dei, wrote:
Source
Was Pius being Protestant???
V
vocatio
Guest
JR, Be at peace. I hope you realized I was joking. At a quick glance it just looked funny to say a priest isn’t religious. I know what you were saying. It was just really funny.I know friars are not monks. I’m a Franciscan. I was not trying to identify all the forms of religious life. I was trying to say that we have to be careful on how we look at secular/diocesan priests and not expect them to live the religious live, because they are not called to such a life.
…
I hope this clarifies why I didn’t go into the breakdown of religious life. Religious life is not the topic of this thread. There is a thread on secular priests and religious on Sacraments and Liturgy.
Thanks
JR
I spent a year at a Benedictine Seminary. It has always broken my hear that I did not finish there. I can not recover that time back. Our Franciscan Friars say a wonderful mass. The reverence is there. I am a EMHC because that is part of what I feel called to do. To difficult to explain. I’d much rather receive and see other children receive communion from preiests and deacons.
However, that said, I’ve always had a problem with the Church subduing or getting rid of the diaconate for so long. I find that a break from Sacred Tradition. And VCII restored it to it rightful place. Another thing is the married priesthood was part of the early Church and still remains today in our Eastern brothers and sisters. I believe that the celebate priesthood is a higher calling in the form of a vocation. The priesthood is a vocation too but the sacrament of holy orders only prevents a non-married man or a widower form being married or remarried. There are dispensations in the case where a priest has young children left behind from the death of a wife.
Judging by my senses it almost seems that the Church or the Holy Spirit is guiding the Church potentially back to the early church. It would help eccumenically with our eastern brothers and sister in the Orthodox Rites. It’s not require, but as time reveals it’s preferrable to a married priesthood. Married preachers don’t bother me as long as they set good examples. But there is an enormous stress placed upon us all with a majority of married priests. The celebate priesthood is a gift from God and I fear that the lack of catechesis is causing us to gradually lose it. This weak state has allowed wrong thinking of possibly allowing women priests as if that could even really happen legitimately. It’s like allowing same sex marriages.
I wish only boys were allowed to be altar servers and I could turn in my EMCH badge to receive from priests and deacons only. I really don’t believe it is right for women to serve at mass…based on scripture, but I’m trying to deal with it praying that God will help me over that hump or correct it if I’m not out of place. Either way, I’ve discovered my own shortcomings require me to be obedient, even if it makes me feel funny. My pride got in the way last time and I left for 17 years. I can’t do that again without losing my soul. It’s far to complex to post. But day by day. God is in control.
PAX
- Status