Would you like to see a phasing out of the Novus Ordo Missae leading to a return to only the TLM?

[elt1956]

@Lily:

Exactly my point about Pope St. Pius V, however can you somehow prove that it was not Infallible? You can’t regardless of what some people say the Liturgy does have to do with Faith. This doesn’t mean that it is dogma, however it is Faith related, thus Ex Cathedra statements can be made about it.

Thank You. So many people here have been supporting the “Pope can do whatever he wants stuff”. The Pope is a Fallible person just like you and me.

In relation to the quote, "The Pope is a Fallible PERSON just like you and me, I have been reading information on this website www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=6211096 (don’t know if you can get it to work, I never can) an article written about the book HITLER’s POPE by John Cornwell, regarding Eugenio Pacelli, better known as Pope Pius XII and his relationship with the Nazi regime during WWII. Cornwell claims to have found buried documents regarding this in the Vatican Archives. ( If what he says is true, I would have burned all information) such as: Pacelli signed Concordats with both the Italian Fascist regime of Mussolini and Hitler which gave security to the Vatican in return for other gestures and non-gestures especially detrimental to the German Catholics and which destabalized the German Center Party which was socialist. (Socialism was the only enemy of Nazism at this time) Cornwell also claims Pacelli was anti-semitic.

Heinrich Brüning, the German chancellor, tells
how Pacelli lectured him on how he should reach an understanding with the Nazis to “form a right-wing administration” in order to help achieve a Reich Concordat favorable to the Vatican. When Brüning advised him not to interfere in German politics, Pacelli threw a tantrum. Brüning’s parting shot that day was the ironic observation – chilling in hindsight – that he trusted that “the Vatican would fare better at the hands of Hitler… than with himself…”

The REICH Concordat granted Pacelli the right to impose the new Code of Canon Law on Catholics in Germany and promised a number of measures favorable to Catholic education, including new schools. In exchange, Pacelli collaborated in the withdrawal of Catholics from political and social activity. The negotiations were conducted in secret by Pacelli, Kaas, and Hitler’s deputy chancellor, Franz von Papen, over the heads of German bishops and the faithful. The Catholic Church in Germany had no say in setting the conditions.The Reich Concordat between Hitler and the Vatican, as Hitler was quick to grasp, created an ideal climate for Jewish persecution.

In the end, Hitler insisted that his signature on the concordat would depend on the Center Party’s voting for the Enabling Act, the legislation that was to give him dictatorial powers. It was Kaas, chairman of the party but completely in thrall to Pacelli, who bullied the delegates into acceptance. Next, Hitler insisted on the “voluntary” disbanding of the Center Party, the last truly parliamentary force in Germany. Again, Pacelli was the prime mover in this tragic Catholic surrender. The fact that the party voluntarily disbanded itself, rather than go down fighting, had a profound psychological effect, depriving Germany of the last democratic focus of potential noncompliance and resistance: In the political vacuum created by its surrender, Catholics in the millions joined the Nazi Party, BELIEVING IT HAD THE SUPPORT OF THE POPE. (So much for scandal) THE GERMAN BISHOPS CAPITULATED TO PACELLI’S POLICY OF CENTRALIZATION AND GERMAN CATHOLIC DEMOCRATS FOUND THEMSELVES POLITICALLY LEADERLESS The Reich Concordat between Hitler and the Vatican, as Hitler was quick to grasp, created an ideal climate for Jewish persecution.

As the theologian Professor Adrian Hastings comments, "The great tide powered by Vatican II has, at least institutionally, spent its force. The old landscape has once more emerged and Vatican II is now being read in Rome far more in the spirit of the First Vatican Council and within the context of Pius XII’s model of Catholicism.’’ A future titanic struggle between the progressives and the traditionalists is in prospect, WITH THE POTENTIAL FOR A CATACLYSMIC SCHISM, ESPECIALLY IN NORTH AMERICA, where a split has opened up between bishops compliant with Rome and ACADEMIC Catholicism, which is increasingly independent and dissident. Pacelli, whose canonization process is now well advanced, has become the icon, 40 years after his death, of those traditionalists who read and revise the provisions of the Second Vatican Council from the viewpoint of Pacelli’s ideology of papal power – an ideology that has proved disastrous in the century’s history.
Copyright Vanity Fair, 1999

These are just some of the things I read. If you want to know more go to the website, or pick up a book of HITLER’S POPE. Pacelli wasn’t a heretic, just fallible. Many of these acts, however took place before he became Pope.

Just a little reminder that all Popes, even before Vatican II, are “humanly” fallible.

 

[Brian777]

Having two rites can be confusing. I would like to see one universial rite one day as there is only one universial Church. The traditional Mass has been reformed over the centuries by many Popes and in the spirit of the Council of Trent. The reforms after Vatican II seem like a new Mass by itself rather than a further reform of the old mass. A true following of Vatican II directive could have arrived at a reformed mass that is directly linked to the old mass.

If I was given the task of refoming the old mass, I would do the following:

• Keep priest and congregation facing same direction
• Keep the Latin for the major prayers to reflect the universial aspects of the Church while using the vernacular in some parts
• Have congregation respond with servers
• Will not change the old vestments
• Keep the original Eucharistic Prayers which will be said in Latin but aloud for everybody to hear and follow along with vernacular translations
• etc.

thats what Vat-2 wanted to do actually, then Bugnini and his cronies came along…

 

[Brian777]

What are you going to do about the Eastern Catholic Divine Liturgies?

Why should he do anyhting at all? Those are beutifyul Liturgies, which, unlike ours, have not been tampered with throughout the centuries. They are more or less the same form and rubrics as when the ggreat Saints for which some of them are named were saying/attending them. Those are part of Eastern Tradition, we have our Western Tradition, as long as both Traditions agree on Dogma, then thats all that matters.

 

[Brian777]

I certainly agree that the missal of St. Pius V was not completely ex nuovo. But it certainly differs form previous missals in various areas and defnitely in the rites it employs. Given the intepretation of the Tridentine canon of Session VII that is urged by (e.g.) Fr. Kranmer, how does one reconcile this deleting of rites?

“Almost” seems quite a broad description. Especially given that all the elements that we are so familiar with in the Traditional Mass- Prayers at the foot of the altar, the fixed Offertory prayers, and other ones like Domine, non sum dignus, Placeat tibi, etc. were resisted in Rome until 2 centuries before St. Pius V and his missal- which is quite a long time after St. Gregory the Great.

Furthermore, many of the (variable) prayers of the missal are not the exact same prayers of St. Gregory the Great. They are of Gallician origin, as any book on the study of the Roman liturgy will tell you. In the Common of Saints, this is even more true- a lot cannot be dated to St. Gregory.

It depends I suppose on what is meant by “late”, does it not? So what are these early written liturgies?

To be sure there are a few and fragments. But I was always under the impression that these were opposed by many in the Traditional camp as dubious authenticity, heretical, etc., etc.

The Didiche heretical, St. Hyppolotus (yes i know), or St. Justin the Martyr? No these are definately solidly orthodox, and early guides to the liturgy.

 

[AJV]

The Didiche heretical, St. Hyppolotus (yes i know), or St. Justin the Martyr? No these are definately solidly orthodox, and early guides to the liturgy.

St. Justin does not give us large texts of the liturgy - it is more a synopsis. The ‘Eucharistic’ parts of the Didache are contested by some scholars and are not seen as exhaustive. The Apostolic Tradition of St. Hippolytus is now being seeing in a different light from the '60’s. I was actually not speaking of these texts are heretical but of certain other ones where on certain, well meaning (I presume) traditionalist apologies they are painted with a lovely broad brush.

 

[Godi]

The reason the Church will return to Latin will be for the same reasons the Church went to the TLM centuries ago. To stop the confusion & abominations that crop up from Religious & Laity “creativity”. To promote Christ centered worship. To standardize the Mass so it is celebrated the same in India as it is in say France & in the same language. So a Priest can come from Korea and say Mass in Britain if need be. But as in the past there are a bunch of stiff necked obstinate people that will cling to their ways. A generation or so will have to die out, so I would not look for a change overnite.

 

[pnewton]

. But as in the past there are a bunch of stiff necked obstinate people that will cling to their ways. A generation or so will have to die out, so I would not look for a change overnite.

A generation has already passed. People keep saying that we will change back to the TLM, yet here we are. Most Catholics are satisfied with whatever the Vatican wants. There are those that are not, though,and want a full returm to the TLM. Even though it is more apt, I still wouldn’t call them stiff necked and obstinate out of respect for their opinion.

 

[catharina]

When did the Holy Spirit tell you that only Latin was acceptable?. The Magisterium is under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and it is they that said the vernacular is OK. I don’t know about you, but for me that seems pretty persuasive. Thats the basket I will put all my eggs in…
Prayers & Blessings
Deacon Ed B

AMEN!

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

I still love the Novus Ordo. Personally, I see more participation with the congregation. What I do get upset about is people telling me that the Novus Ordo is a poor substitute. For what? If its merits, as mass, are infinite, how can that be a poor substitute? There is room and place for the Novus Ordo and the Latin Mass. Neither ritual makes those participating any more or less Catholic than the other. If people would just realize this and this alone, I think we would all be better off as opposed to this endless debate and at times incivility over this issue. It is things such as this that fuels the liberal press and their views of the Catholic Church. I keep saying over and over to everyone, this is the mass, a reenactment of the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross for each of us, and we have the gall to speak of it, and pridefully analyze it as if it were an off Broadway production. Look at what we have before us and be happy with your faith, the One, Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[catharina]

I still love the Novus Ordo. Personally, I see more participation with the congregation. What I do get upset about is people telling me that the Novus Ordo is a poor substitute. For what? If its merits, as mass, are infinite, how can that be a poor substitute? There is room and place for the Novus Ordo and the Latin Mass. Neither ritual makes those participating any more or less Catholic than the other. If people would just realize this and this alone, I think we would all be better off as opposed to this endless debate and at times incivility over this issue. It is things such as this that fuels the liberal press and their views of the Catholic Church. I keep saying over and over to everyone, this is the mass, a reenactment of the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross for each of us, and we have the gall to speak of it, and pridefully analyze it as if it were an off Broadway production. Look at what we have before us and be happy with your faith, the One, Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

Yes and PS: we are to bring the spirit of prayer within us, regardless of the form of the Mass. How did anyone in the Church reach a point of imagining we are to attend Mass as critics?

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

How did anyone in the Church reach a point of imagining we are to attend Mass as critics?

I don’t know, but I just wish they would concentrate more on what the mass is and what it is does for each of us, as opposed to tearing it apart as I have seen is some threads. I find it truly sad.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[Jeanette_L]

I still love the Novus Ordo. Personally, I see more participation with the congregation. What I do get upset about is people telling me that the Novus Ordo is a poor substitute. For what? If its merits, as mass, are infinite, how can that be a poor substitute? There is room and place for the Novus Ordo and the Latin Mass. Neither ritual makes those participating any more or less Catholic than the other. If people would just realize this and this alone, I think we would all be better off as opposed to this endless debate and at times incivility over this issue. It is things such as this that fuels the liberal press and their views of the Catholic Church. I keep saying over and over to everyone, this is the mass, a reenactment of the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross for each of us, and we have the gall to speak of it, and pridefully analyze it as if it were an off Broadway production. Look at what we have before us and be happy with your faith, the One, Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

Yes and PS: we are to bring the spirit of prayer within us, regardless of the form of the Mass. How did anyone in the Church reach a point of imagining we are to attend Mass as critics?

If we are ***actually and fully ***convinced as to the truth of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, we have no business or right to sit as critics, but to come to it as Catharina has stated, with our hearts and minds prayerfully focused on the miracle of grace before us. To do anything else is worse than anything that could possibly be criticized in the particular form of the one Roman Rite we are participating in.

The spirit of bitterness and anger and indignation will block any grace that needs to penetrate our hearts, why is this so hard to understand? Forgiveness is the one thing required by God in order to be forgiven, it’s time to forgive the Church for disappointing us and our sensibilities, get back to the heart of Christ and serve him with joy.

 

[Freshman88]

If we are ***actually and fully ***convinced as to the truth of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, we have no business or right to sit as critics, but to come to it as Catharina has stated, with our hearts and minds prayerfully focused on the miracle of grace before us. To do anything else is worse than anything that could possibly be criticized in the particular form of the one Roman Rite we are participating in.

I attend the NO regularly and often daily because I cannot reach my EF parish with ease. When I attend I do my best to focus on our Lord and His sacrifice. Yet despite this I am critical of the NO mass. I don’t understand why it is that you claim that criticism and devotion are mutually exclusive.

When I study the liturgy I become critical, but when I pray the liturgy (even the NO) I can easily drop that criticism. I may often be annoyed but this I cannot help because of what I know.

The spirit of bitterness and anger and indignation will block any grace that needs to penetrate our hearts, why is this so hard to understand?

Because it isn’t necessarily true?

Forgiveness is the one thing required by God in order to be forgiven, it’s time to forgive the Church for disappointing us and our sensibilities, get back to the heart of Christ and serve him with joy.

This is what divides the traditionalist and the mainstream Catholic. The traditionalist does not see it as a mere disappointment or some kind of attack on our sensibilites. We truly see something wrong with the heart of the liturgy, and we are trying to vocalize this concern.

Besides, how can I even be disappointed when I’m as old as Ecclessia Dei? I ran to the EF I did not run away from the NO.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

I We truly see something wrong with the heart of the liturgy, and we are trying to vocalize this concern.
.

Vocalizing a concern and outright attacking a form of mass, in this case, the Novus Ordo, with things that I have seen said about it, is not vocalizing a concern. It is way beyond that. This is what we are pointing out. Again, we are talking about the unbloody sacrifice of the Cross reenacted on the altar before our eyes, with the miracle of Jesus coming to us in the Eucharist. Thats all it is. Thats what it is. Thats what I ask that people expressing a “valid concern” would remember before they speak.
Prayers & Blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[Freshman88]

Vocalizing a concern and outright attacking a form of mass, in this case, the Novus Ordo, with things that I have seen said about it, is not vocalizing a concern. It is way beyond that. This is what we are pointing out.

Well I certainly can’t support uncharitable comments, but too often a criticism is read as an attack. If I question the absence of altar rails or communion in the hand, I am perceived as attacking the mass. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Again, we are talking about the unbloody sacrifice of the Cross reenacted on the altar before our eyes, with the miracle of Jesus coming to us in the Eucharist. Thats all it is. Thats what it is. Thats what I ask that people expressing a “valid concern” would remember before they speak.
Prayers & Blessings
Deacon Ed B

But can’t you see that it is because the mass is as vital as it is that traditionalists take it so seriously. The liturgy is a cornerstone of the faith. Save the liturgy, save the world!

 

[saint_rafael]

A generation has already passed. People keep saying that we will change back to the TLM, yet here we are. Most Catholics are satisfied with whatever the Vatican wants. There are those that are not, though,and want a full returm to the TLM. Even though it is more apt, I still wouldn’t call them stiff necked and obstinate out of respect for their opinion.

The TLM has been the Mass of the Roman Rite and Popes throughout the centuries that nourished the Faith of Saints and Sinners.

Catholics don’t want the New Mass. **77% of Catholics don’t go to Mass. The Overwhelming majority of Catholics are on the way to damnation. **Why? They know in their hearts something is wrong with the liturgy. It is not serious. Most Catholic teenagers can feel it, that the Church does no take worship seriously.

I grew up in the Novus Ordo and I can tell you for a fact that I did not believe in the real presence of Jesus in the Eucharist when I was a teenager. The Mass did not feel sacred. In six years of Catholic education, no one ever said that the Mass was the sacrafice of Calvary. I didn’t find that out until my twenties. Most teenagers mock the Mass. I have heard them during some of the Masses.

No one could ever say that about the TLM. People might not like it, but no one can say it lacks the supernatural, the sacred, or reverence. That is why it is called the Mass of all time. The most beautiful thing this side of heaven.
**
The Novus Ordo has been a miserable failure that has been extremely harmful for the Church.**

 

[nannygirl]

This sounds just a bit far out. Care to name the parish and city where someone can check this out. If it is true, the bishop definitely should be notified.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

Our Bishop knows about it and is doing something about it - merging 2 parishes together. I live in a city where the laity have pretty much run the show for years with the old bishop’s permission- hence all the nonsense. Our new Bishop has been under attack because he is restoring some order. He has been ridiculed and ignored. A certain publication, (I think it is called National Catholic Reporter), smeared him and this publication was distributed in several local churches where people were encouraged to read it. This incident was what set me on my quest for a true Catholic church faithful to the Bishop and Rome.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

Our Bishop knows about it and is doing something about it - merging 2 parishes together. I live in a city where the laity have pretty much run the show for years with the old bishop’s permission- hence all the nonsense. Our new Bishop has been under attack because he is restoring some order. He has been ridiculed and ignored. A certain publication, (I think it is called National Catholic Reporter), smeared him and this publication was distributed in several local churches where people were encouraged to read it. This incident was what set me on my quest for a true Catholic church faithful to the Bishop and Rome.

I will hold you, your bishop, your parish and your diocese up in special prayer. I will also ask that all who read this post do the same. Lets all acknowledge this to this thread so we can see we do all pray for Holy Mother Church.
Prayers & blessings
Deacocn Ed B

 

[Sure]

The TLM has been the Mass of the Roman Rite and Popes throughout the centuries that nourished the Faith of Saints and Sinners.

Catholics don’t want the New Mass. **77% of Catholics don’t go to Mass. The Overwhelming majority of Catholics are on the way to damnation. **Why? They know in their hearts something is wrong with the liturgy. It is not serious. Most Catholic teenagers can feel it, that the Church does no take worship seriously.

I grew up in the Novus Ordo and I can tell you for a fact that I did not believe in the real presence of Jesus in the Eucharist when I was a teenager. The Mass did not feel sacred. In six years of Catholic education, no one ever said that the Mass was the sacrafice of Calvary. I didn’t find that out until my twenties. Most teenagers mock the Mass. I have heard them during some of the Masses.

No one could ever say that about the TLM. People might not like it, but no one can say it lacks the supernatural, the sacred, or reverence. That is why it is called the Mass of all time. The most beautiful thing this side of heaven.
**
The Novus Ordo has been a miserable failure that has been extremely harmful for the Church.**

Sorry to hear that your personal experience was so unfortunate. Please don’t extrapolate that to all of Catholicism.

Any rite (small “r”) of the Mass (said according to the rubrics) is good and pleasing to Our Lord, is the sacrifice of Calvary, and is an image of the Heavenly Jerusalem with all the Angels and Saints.

 

[Brian777]

St. Justin does not give us large texts of the liturgy - it is more a synopsis. The ‘Eucharistic’ parts of the Didache are contested by some scholars and are not seen as exhaustive. The Apostolic Tradition of St. Hippolytus is now being seeing in a different light from the '60’s. I was actually not speaking of these texts are heretical but of certain other ones where on certain, well meaning (I presume) traditionalist apologies they are painted with a lovely broad brush.

well i guess im lokst kind of, but all i know is that atleast by Nicaea there was a decently uniform pattern to the liturgy thats all im saying.