Would you like to see a phasing out of the Novus Ordo Missae leading to a return to only the TLM?

[Cat]

The TLM has been the Mass of the Roman Rite and Popes throughout the centuries that nourished the Faith of Saints and Sinners.

Catholics don’t want the New Mass. **77% of Catholics don’t go to Mass. The Overwhelming majority of Catholics are on the way to damnation. **Why? They know in their hearts something is wrong with the liturgy. It is not serious. Most Catholic teenagers can feel it, that the Church does no take worship seriously.

I grew up in the Novus Ordo and I can tell you for a fact that I did not believe in the real presence of Jesus in the Eucharist when I was a teenager. The Mass did not feel sacred. In six years of Catholic education, no one ever said that the Mass was the sacrafice of Calvary. I didn’t find that out until my twenties. Most teenagers mock the Mass. I have heard them during some of the Masses.

No one could ever say that about the TLM. People might not like it, but no one can say it lacks the supernatural, the sacred, or reverence. That is why it is called the Mass of all time. The most beautiful thing this side of heaven.
**
The Novus Ordo has been a miserable failure that has been extremely harmful for the Church.**

Funny thing. I grew up evangelical Protestant, and I always believed that Jesus was truly present in the host in the Catholic Mass.

Does that mean that my Protestant worship services were “good” after all?!

My point is, just because you believe or don’t believe something does not mean that the Mass is “bad.” The Mass’s value is not dependent upon your belief in it. It is True because it is True, not because you believe it to be True.

 

[luvlife]

Is we went back to the old mass, does that mean I’d never have to listen to drums again in church?

I’d agree if it meant no drums, which make me feel like I’m at a bad concert & give me a headache.

 

[holdencaulfield]

The TLM could very well be abolished or altered. It more than likely will not be abolished, but it is entirely within the authority of the Holy See to do so. It could lawfully and legitimately be altered, if the Pope saw fitting reasons to do so, all of which Quo Primum forbids. A pope, however, cannot bind his succesors in matters of discipline.

How is Quo Primum not Infallible?

 

[holdencaulfield]

Another example of Infallible teachings that people like to ignore. Pope St. Pius X’s Anti-Modernism Oath. The Church has a long way to go before it’s healed.

 

[LilyM]

Is we went back to the old mass, does that mean I’d never have to listen to drums again in church?

I’d agree if it meant no drums, which make me feel like I’m at a bad concert & give me a headache.

I’ve never in my life - not once, not even in the most haphazard of NOs - heard drums in church. If you have those, the problem is with your parish or diocese, not with the NO.

 

[holdencaulfield]

I’ve never in my life - not once, not even in the most haphazard of NOs - heard drums in church. If you have those, the problem is with your parish or diocese, not with the NO.

That is true. However if the Church did decide to get rid of the NO, they first need to set some guidelines for it. I would suggest that the Church revise the NO, and make it more strict so that no one can mess with it. Even make big changes in it like Communion by mouth, ect.

 

[pnewton]

Catholics don’t want the New Mass. **77% of Catholics don’t go to Mass. The Overwhelming majority of Catholics are on the way to damnation. **Why? They know in their hearts something is wrong with the liturgy. It is not serious.

You have a unique perspective on the use of statistics and how to make them support your opinion.

 

[holdencaulfield]

You have a unique perspective on the use of statistics and how to make them support your opinion.

However the point still stands the Novus Ordo is a plague on the Church and must be stopped. How this is to be done, I do not know, however nothing good has come out of it.

 

[luvlife]

I’ve never in my life - not once, not even in the most haphazard of NOs - heard drums in church. If you have those, the problem is with your parish or diocese, not with the NO.

Is this true???

I’m a convert. This is the only parish I know.

And yes, we have drums at the Sunday night mass I attend. It’s not a teen mass - just a regular mass. Drums played loudly & poorly I might add.

I don’t attend a “liberal” parish - (I don’t think?) We have almost always only altar BOYS and they have to wear dress shoes. All six of them. Plus our Priests love incense. Lots & lots of incense. I guess I don’t know how else to tell if it’s liberal/conservative except by that.

They are also offering classes on how to understand the Latin mass because they are going to be doing that once a month. I imagine the drums aren’t included?

 

[pnewton]

My point is, just because you believe or don’t believe something does not mean that the Mass is “bad.” The Mass’s value is not dependent upon your belief in it. It is True because it is True, not because you believe it to be True.

I am reminded when this line of thinking comes up of Thomas and how he lacked faith without visual evidence. I wonder if sanctus bells make the belief in the real presence easier. In any case, the words of Jesus ring true. “You believe, Thomas, because you have seen me. Blessed is he who has not seen and yet believes.” Likewise, how sad it is to think that we have to see Mass a certain way to believe in Jesus’ presence and thereby miss the blessing that comes from a deeper faith.

 

[Brian777]

Is this true???

I’m a convert. This is the only parish I know.

And yes, we have drums at the Sunday night mass I attend. It’s not a teen mass - just a regular mass. Drums played loudly & poorly I might add.

I don’t attend a “liberal” parish - (I don’t think?) We have almost always only altar BOYS and they have to wear dress shoes. All six of them. Plus our Priests love incense. Lots & lots of incense. I guess I don’t know how else to tell if it’s liberal/conservative except by that.

ask your priest who is worthy of Salvation if he doesnt answer with the quote form Cantate Domino posted below or a paraphrase of it, then its a liberal parish…

Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441
The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.

note there are exceptions to the rule, this is noted as early as the 2nd and 3rd centuries by many fathers of the church, but in general this is the official teaching on salvation

 

[LilyM]

Is this true???

I’m a convert. This is the only parish I know.

And yes, we have drums at the Sunday night mass I attend. It’s not a teen mass - just a regular mass. Drums played loudly & poorly I might add.

I don’t attend a “liberal” parish - (I don’t think?) We have almost always only altar BOYS and they have to wear dress shoes. All six of them. Plus our Priests love incense. Lots & lots of incense. I guess I don’t know how else to tell if it’s liberal/conservative except by that.

They are also offering classes on how to understand the Latin mass because they are going to be doing that once a month. I imagine the drums aren’t included?

True as you’re born - and I was a cradle, practicing Catholic until the age of at least 20 and again for the past 2 1/2 (nearly) years - so that’s a lot of Masses in a lot of different churches here and overseas.

 

[holdencaulfield]

@Brian777:

Good point about Cantate Domino especially because that is an Infallible document of the Catholic Church. To reject if would force an Anathema upon oneself. However that doesn’t mean that it is the only way to find a liberal priest. In fact any priest who ignores the Ordinary Magisterium of the Catholic Church, is a heretic. However the fact that the priest uses drums, or any instrument outside of the pipe organ would suggest liberalism.

 

[Brian777]

@Brian777:

Good point about Cantate Domino especially because that is an Infallible document of the Catholic Church. To reject if would force an Anathema upon oneself. However that doesn’t mean that it is the only way to find a liberal priest. In fact any priest who ignores the Ordinary Magisterium of the Catholic Church, is a heretic. However the fact that the priest uses drums, or any instrument outside of the pipe organ would suggest liberalism.

Yeah but not always of course. At my local seminary both the rector and the Bishop, who lives at the Seminary are very orthodox and dont hide it at all…but there are drums and guitars in the chapel for Mass, as well as copious amounts of incense, but Gregorian Chant in the Liturgy of the Hours.

 

[holdencaulfield]

@Brain777:

That’s to bad about the drums. I assume from your post you are in the Seminary?

 

[holdencaulfield]

I would like to draw attention to this follow quote from the Code of the Canon Law for all of you who think that the Pope could proclaim heresy Infallibly. We can see right here that he cannot.

Canon 752 Although not an assent of faith, a religious submission of the intellect and will must be given to a doctrine which the Supreme Pontiff or the college of bishops declares concerning faith or morals when they exercise the authentic magisterium, even if they do not intend to proclaim it by definitive act; therefore, the Christian faithful are to take care to avoid those things which do not agree with it [Authentic Magisterium].

 

[luvlife]

ask your priest who is worthy of Salvation if he doesnt answer with the quote form Cantate Domino posted below or a paraphrase of it, then its a liberal parish…

Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441
The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.

note there are exceptions to the rule, this is noted as early as the 2nd and 3rd centuries by many fathers of the church, but in general this is the official teaching on salvation

I don’t think my church believes that. Not only does one not need to be CAtholic - one needn’t even be Christian OR believe in God at all.

In RCIA they said Muslims, Hindus, even Atheists can be saved and then the Priest did this demonstration of a blind person being led through the “door” by a person who can see (persumably a Christian but maybe he meant Jesus?) - so the bottom line was anyone & everyone can make it to heaven if they are “good” but it’s still through Jesus even if they didn’t give beans about Him while they were alive.

Not sure I believe that. I think while it’s “possible” - it’s a long shot at best. But that’s just my personal opinion…

are we allowed to have opinions?

 

[Brian777]

@Brain777:

That’s to bad about the drums. I assume from your post you are in the Seminary?

I WISH!!! I still have to suffer through one more agonizing year of high school at a public school where Satan definately rules. Almost all faithful Catholics there can’t wait to leave it behind. But i have visited the Seminary multiple times and i know the rector and many of the sems rather well. I plan on applying very soon. Please pray for me that I follow god’s call as He sees fit. Ill keep you in mine as well

 

[holdencaulfield]

@luvlife:

I’m sorry that you have had such a liberal parish. There is no Salvation outside of the Church, this is Infallible doctrine. So no you are not allowed to have you own opinion and not be deemed a heretic. You should of course know that most RCIA classes are very heretical and make it a point to teach heresy. This is why I would advise any Converts, especially young people to not take the RCIA to instead see if you can research privately especially with a real Catholic priest for example an FSSP priest.

---

Pope Eugene IV proclaimed the Bull Cantate Domino Infallibly during the Council of Florence. The entire Church accepted this, even the Eastern Orthodox Bishops, although they latter decided to schism, it’s odd that the people that agreed to no Salvation outside the Church willfully left it.

 

[holdencaulfield]

I WISH!!! I still have to suffer through one more agonizing year of high school at a public school where Satan definately rules. Almost all faithful Catholics there can’t wait to leave it behind. But i have visited the Seminary multiple times and i know the rector and many of the sems rather well. I plan on applying very soon. Please pray for me that I follow god’s call as He sees fit. Ill keep you in mine as well

Yes I hate High School as well. Public schooling is so terrible. May I ask what type of seminary you would like to attend. I would suggest a FSSP one if you want to get a true understanding of the faith. Or perhaps a SSPX one if they have returned to full Communion by the time you are out of school.