Would you like to see a phasing out of the Novus Ordo Missae leading to a return to only the TLM?

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holdencaulfield said:
@luvlife:
I’m sorry that you have had such a liberal parish. There is no Salvation outside of the Church, this is Infallible doctrine. So no you are not allowed to have you own opinion and not be deemed a heretic. You should of course know that most RCIA classes are very heretical and make it a point to teach heresy. This is why I would advise any Converts, especially young people to not take the RCIA to instead see if you can research privately especially with a real Catholic priest for example an FSSP priest.
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I am so tired of hearing “no salvation outside the Church” from people who do not complete this statement & explain it the way that the Church does. If one is just going to proclaim this** one part **of the teaching, without speaking of the Baptism of Desire & invincible ignorance, then one should not mention it at all, at least not to non-Catholics who would, OF COURSE, take offense. If I were one of them, I would.

Concerning this doctrine the Pope of Vatican I, Pius IX, spoke on two different occasions. In an allocution (address to an audience) on December 9th, 1854 he said:

We must hold as of the faith, that out of the Apostolic Roman Church there is no salvation; that she is the only ark of safety, and whosoever is not in her perishes in the deluge; we must also, on the other hand, recognize with certainty that those who are invincible in ignorance of the true religion are not guilty for this in the eyes of the Lord. And who would presume to mark out the limits of this ignorance according to the character and diversity of peoples, countries, minds and the rest?

Again, in his encyclical Quanto conficiamur moerore of 10 August, 1863 addressed to the Italian bishops, he said:

It is known to us and to you that those who are in invincible ignorance of our most holy religion, but who observe carefully the natural law, and the precepts graven by God upon the hearts of all men, and who being disposed to obey God lead an honest and upright life, may, aided by the light of divine grace, attain to eternal life; for God who sees clearly, searches and knows the heart, the disposition, the thoughts and intentions of each, in His supreme mercy and goodness by no means permits that anyone suffer eternal punishment, who has not of his own free will fallen into sin.
 
Aragorn1 said:
You really don’t get it, do you? NO ONE on this thread has EVER claimed the Mass is not part of - or the central aspect of - our faith. The argument is that a particular form of liturgy, or outward embellishment of the Mass, is no more worthy of being definitively established as dogma than any other form of liturgy. Is setting up caricatures of other people’s positions the best you can do on this thread?
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Outside of the Eastern Rites which are used by small percentages of Catholics, there is NO other form of liturgy but the Mass of the Roman Rite. The Roman Rite is the Universal Mass and liturgy of the Catholic Church. It was the Council of Trent and Quo Primum that decided than once and for all time in history, the Mass and liturgy would be set in stone forever.

At the moment in history, the Church said this Mass (TLM) WOULD be the definite form of liturgy for all time and was the highest point that the Mass could ever be developed. It was the most SUPERIOR liturgy the Church could ever come up with in it’s history.
 
There is no Salvation outside of the Catholic Church. This is Infallible Church doctrine. To reject this places you outside of the Church into Anathema. Do so at your own risk. 🤷
 
holdencaulfield said:
There is no Salvation outside of the Catholic Church. This is Infallible Church doctrine. To reject this places you outside of the Church into Anathema. Do so at your own risk. 🤷
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You need to study the theology behind this. It is not cut and dry as you say. Read the section of Catholic (The marks of the Church, i.e., One, Holy Catholic and Apostolic) and the section on salvation both in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Also read Romans 2:12-16. You will then see that the definition of Catholic and the requirements for salvation are a bit broader than what you seem to think.
Prayers & Blessings
Deacon Ed B
 
CradleCath said:
I am so tired of hearing “no salvation outside the Church” from people who do not complete this statement & explain it the way that the Church does. If one is just going to proclaim this** one part **of the teaching, without speaking of the Baptism of Desire & invincible ignorance, then one should not mention it at all, at least not to non-Catholics who would, OF COURSE, take offense. If I were one of them, I would.

Concerning this doctrine the Pope of Vatican I, Pius IX, spoke on two different occasions. In an allocution (address to an audience) on December 9th, 1854 he said:

We must hold as of the faith, that out of the Apostolic Roman Church there is no salvation; that she is the only ark of safety, and whosoever is not in her perishes in the deluge; we must also, on the other hand, recognize with certainty that those who are invincible in ignorance of the true religion are not guilty for this in the eyes of the Lord. And who would presume to mark out the limits of this ignorance according to the character and diversity of peoples, countries, minds and the rest?

Again, in his encyclical Quanto conficiamur moerore of 10 August, 1863 addressed to the Italian bishops, he said:

It is known to us and to you that those who are in invincible ignorance of our most holy religion, but who observe carefully the natural law, and the precepts graven by God upon the hearts of all men, and who being disposed to obey God lead an honest and upright life, may, aided by the light of divine grace, attain to eternal life; for God who sees clearly, searches and knows the heart, the disposition, the thoughts and intentions of each, in His supreme mercy and goodness by no means permits that anyone suffer eternal punishment, who has not of his own free will fallen into sin.
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I don’t think I would get too worked up about. It’s merely a circumstance of people stating the rule and not the exception.
 
Deacon_Ed_B said:
You need to study the theology behind this. It is not cut and dry as you say. Read the section of Catholic (The marks of the Church, i.e., One, Holy Catholic and Apostolic) and the section on salvation both in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Also read Romans 2:12-16. You will then see that the definition of Catholic and the requirements for salvation are a bit broader than what you seem to think.
Prayers & Blessings
Deacon Ed B
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I understand this. However it is possible for someone to be saved outside the Catholic Church, however the point is that there are always exceptions, however regardless to say otherwise is heresy.
 
saint_rafael said:
More and More Catholics are realizing the truth.

Confessions of a folk Mass guitarist:

unavoce.org/Confessi.htm
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There are many such stories, some of which may be true. They are found on the same websites that cater to those who already agree with them. I sometimes check out sites like Catholics for a Free Choice. They use the same tactics of reporting articles that support those that agree with them.
 
MarSarkees said:
I don’t think I would get too worked up about. It’s merely a circumstance of people stating the rule and not the exception.
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When the rule is stated wrongly, people will assume that it is an arrogant human institution that would teach such a thing, and either leave it or refuse to hear another thing from it. How do I know? I’ve seen it.

It is very important that this doctrine be neither swept under the rug nor propogated widely but falsely…and particularly important that it not be taught in an abrupt, “take it or leave it” fashion that leaves the impression that no further nuance or exception exists.

Half of a truth is bad as a falsehood, if it is implied that it is the whole truth. After all, isn’t that kind of “truth” that Satan tried to use to tempt Christ?
 
@Deacon Ed B:

I know sorry. I’m a bit short tempered lately after having a short stint with Orthodoxy. I realized that no Church is the Church without the Keys. I’m just glad to be back.
 
holdencaulfield said:
@Deacon Ed B:

I know sorry. I’m a bit short tempered lately after having a short stint with Orthodoxy. I realized that no Church is the Church without the Keys. I’m just glad to be back.
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As you do battle with your temper, realize that to allow it to distort the truth in this manner could have the unintended effect of scandalizing other souls away from evangelization.

Those people might not log in to read the “oops”. 😦
 
pnewton said:
There are many such stories, some of which may be true. They are found on the same websites that cater to those who already agree with them. I sometimes check out sites like Catholics for a Free Choice. They use the same tactics of reporting articles that support those that agree with them.
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You are comparing heretics with traditional Roman Catholicism.
Catholics for a Free Choice are apostates and heretics who believe in the right to murder.
Those who support the TLM, are supporting the Mass of the Catholic Church from St. Peter, to St. Gregory, and the same Mass that was codified at Trent. The Mass that will last forever.

The fact is that the facts themselves and reality are on the side of
tradition. The restoration of the Church will be won because of the traditional movement.

You are right about one thing. That in the end, there are only two sides in the fight, the traditionalists and the modernists. It’s too bad we have too many Catholics stuck in the middle of “no man’s land”.
 
@saint rafael:

Good point. Since the Church will never completely die, and if it keeps moving in the modernist direction it will, Tradition will win. I think that people will eventually get bored of the tacky Novus Ordo form and decide to go with the Tridentine Mass.
 
saint_rafael said:
You are comparing heretics with tradional Roman Catholicism.
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Yes I did. In the case of how they present their websites, the comparison is apt. Namely, large volumes of articles they claim to be authoritative that support their claims. When people link their favorite sites here as if they are making a point, realize that most of us go to the Church for truth, not traditio, unavoce or CFC.
 
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This thread is closed. Thanks to all who participated in the discussion.
 
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