Would you prefer to live in a Catholic theocracy?

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chosen_people said:
Of course going back farther, historians have a term for that period of european history when Catholic church power was at its zenith. They call it the “the dark ages”.
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No, they don’t. Not anymore. That was a particularly silly and bigoted phrase which no respectable historian would be caught dead using today, not at least for the period “when Catholic church power was at its zenith,” as Jack Fisher points out.

If you are going to cite “historians,” it would be nice to read some.

Edwin
 
Verisimilitude said:
If there was an opportunity to vote for, or establish the Pope as President of the US in 2008 (or any nation) where the doctrine of the Catholic Church was the law of the land- would you?
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Not president, but Lord King. And no votes.

Yes, I would.
Why or why not?
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Because I am a monarchist. I think there are many good reasons for establishing monarchy. The Pope would not necessarily make the best leader, and a good king need not be the Pope. But I think the Pope would make a good king.

Why I think Monarchy, if adhered to well, is the best form of government, is the topic of another thread entirely, but you may PM me if you would like to understand my views better.
What kind of immigration policy would it set? Drug policy? R&D? Foreign policy?
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Whatever is decided by the King and Council. This is why Monarchy, if done properly, is so wonderful. It takes these complex decisions out of the hands of someone as inept as myself.
If we truly believe what we believe…why wouldn’t we want that?
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Belief in the Catholic faith does not necessarily imply Monarchy or Theocracy.

There are many reasons that people would not want this, one of the foremost being threat to freedom of action, which is held very highly in the Catholic Church. I think monarchy promotes and protects that freedom best, but I submit to the majority who disagree, at least in this thread.
 
Interstingly enough you all chose to ignore the example of Pius IX
 
Why do we ignore the persecution of the Palestinian people going on as we speak?
 
johnstown_johnn said:
Israel does not treat the Palestinians as HUMAN BEINGS let alone the history lesson we just read.

The treatment of the Palestinians is going on TODAY, not in the Dark Ages. Those people are victims in a modern world.

I would love to live in a Catholic theocracy.
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Yes and yesterday you posted that the President of France being “Jewish” was possibly the anti christ.
 
chosen_people said:
Interstingly enough you all chose to ignore the example of Pius IX
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I’m also ignoring the example of the Thirty Years War, too, and, oh, probably a hundred other more examples more egregious than yours showing why theocratic governments of any flavor are a bad idea.

western-style demoncracies are clearly the best hope for preserving Catholic liberties. remember, not even the Roman empire was enough to preserve Catholicism.
 
chosen_people said:
Yes and yesterday you posted that the President of France being “Jewish” was possibly the anti christ.
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You just twisted what I said about Sarkozy. I did NOT name him as anti-Christ. He fits two of the prophetic categories. That is NOT the same as calling him anti-Christ solely because he is Jewish.

It’s amazing how some people can twist and distort.

However, this is straying off topic. You denounced a Catholic theocracy citing the historical events and yet, there is even an incomparable inhumane treatment of an entire people TODAY in Palestine.

Jesus taught us to, “…see the log in our own eye BEFORE we see the splinter in our neighbor’s eye.”

This is wonderful lesson to live by for both christian and non-Christian.

Peace.
 
johnstown_johnn said:
You just twisted what I said about Sarkozy. I did NOT name him as anti-Christ. He fits two of the prophetic categories. That is NOT the same as calling him anti-Christ solely because he is Jewish.

It’s amazing how some people can twist and distort.

However, this is straying off topic. You denounced a Catholic theocracy citing the historical events and yet, there is even an incomparable inhumane treatment of an entire people TODAY in Palestine.

Jesus taught us to, “…see the log in our own eye BEFORE we see the splinter in our neighbor’s eye.”

This is wonderful lesson to live by for both christian and non-Christian.

Peace.
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In all fairness you also pointed out that he was Hungarian.
 
Verisimilitude said:
If there was an opportunity to vote for, or establish the Pope as President of the US in 2008 (or any nation) where the doctrine of the Catholic Church was the law of the land- would you?

Why or why not?

If we truly believe what we believe…why wouldn’t we want that?
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Would the Pope then be leader of both the Vatican City, the Roman Catholic Church and the U.S.?

Do you think, already being leader of Vatican City, okay, the human representative of God, as well as that of the Roman Catholic church, that the Pope could run a 3rd country - the U.S., in addition to all the duties he already has?

Do you think the Pope would stand a good chance of getting elected to the U.S. presidency? Voting for and establishing someone as US president are two different tasks.

Wouldn’t God be the head of theocracy, with people as His representatives on this earth? Would Heaven be another name for a properly run theocracy, or would it be Utopia?

Don’t Islamic countries have their religion intermingled with their government operations? How’s that working out so far?

Just sort of thinking out loud about your question…

I think as long as there is fallen, imperfect mankind there are going to be fallen, imperfect governments.

Just my two cents.
 
Jack_Fisher said:
cool. which House to you recommend for the USofA? Romanov? Orleans? Harkonnen?
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The united states would function best as an Aristocracy, so the family names would be more Clinton, Bush, Kennedy, Gates, and the like.

Short of a Catholic Monarchy and a virtuous Aristocracy (like that described by Rand, except Catholic), Capitalism is our best bet.

I am happy to live in the US of A!

But if I were in England, or thereabouts, I would be a Jacobite Monarchist.
 
Saul.Tentmaker said:
The united states would function best as an Aristocracy, so the family names would be more Clinton, Bush, Kennedy, Gates, and the like.

Short of a Catholic Monarchy and a virtuous Aristocracy (like that described by Rand, except Catholic), Capitalism is our best bet.

I am happy to live in the US of A!

But if I were in England, or thereabouts, I would be a Jacobite Monarchist.
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you’re right, there’s nothing like a Grade A philosopher-king. but short of one, I’d be a Cavalier, or maybe Juan Peron, or Miguelito Loveless, except taller.
 
chosen_people said:
I believe this a discussion on a Catholic theocracy. If the moderators allow it I would be happy to point out why your anti zionism is at the same level of validity as your general anti Jewish attitudes as reflected in your posts on this forum.

For those who are interested:

terrorismawareness.org/what-really-happened/
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Many of your posts reflect anti-Catholicism…the irony of that is you are posting on a CATHOLIC FORUM. How one-sided can one get? Amazing, amazing, amazing.

All the same, Chosen People…peace to you and yours.
 
chosen_people said:
I don’t know where you get your info, but personally, when historical accounts between Protesters andCatholics differ, i am going to believe theCatholic ones long b4 the P ones…assuming i believe the P ones at all… seeing as how Catholics knowthere is not only a Hell but a Purgatory… (they are far less inclined to stretch thetruth or lie…).

Purgatory is “Hell” that comes to an end (its been called “excrutiating” by the saints). We are supposed to do our Purgatory here on Earth and then we won’t have so muhc to do in the next life… We do this through offering up our sufferings for past sins (very cleansing thing to do), charitable work, and just generally doing all Christ told us to do (not so easy once you attempt it…but necessary… ). If we all obeyed him in every way, wouldn’t this world be a different place??? And then we wouldn’t be in Purgatory so long… I heard the average stay there is 40 years… not hard 2 believe when you know how holy Godis (Blessed Sacrament, etc.). God bless.
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Verisimilitude said:
If there was an opportunity to vote for, or establish the Pope as President of the US in 2008 (or any nation) where the doctrine of the Catholic Church was the law of the land- would you?

Why or why not?

I’m not sure I want to qualify the scenerio with assumptions like there would be no corruption as likley would occur. I think there might be real reasons why it shouldn’t or couldn’t happen…but if it could?

What kind of immigration policy would it set? Drug policy? R&D? Foreign policy?

If we truly believe what we believe…why wouldn’t we want that?
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Well, getting back to the OP, I would easily say no. It is a horrible idea to have any country’s government set up as a [insert religion here] theocracy. The Catholic Church had a poor record of this from the Middle Ages through the end of the Papal States in 1870. Europe had Protestant-based ones that led many to come here and settle here in the US to get away from it. Islamic Theocratic states today show similar oppressive trends.

The key to any Theocracy is an expectation of absolute, unquestioning rule which is highly authoritarian and not a type of religious utopia that some here mistakenly think would happen.

JPII apologized for many black marks that happened during the times the Catholic Church was the ruler of the land, we do not need a return to those times.
 
NewUlm1976_2000 said:
Well, getting back to the OP, I would easily say no. It is a horrible idea to have any country’s government set up as a [insert religion here] theocracy. The Catholic Church had a poor record of this from the Middle Ages through the end of the Papal States in 1870. Europe had Protestant-based ones that led many to come here and settle here in the US to get away from it. Islamic Theocratic states today show similar oppressive trends.

The key to any Theocracy is an expectation of absolute, unquestioning rule which is highly authoritarian and not a type of religious utopia that some here mistakenly think would happen.

JPII apologized for many black marks that happened during the times the Catholic Church was the ruler of the land, we do not need a return to those times.
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Yes, there were sins what we shoudl rightly apologize for. But the sins of the modern secualar world are so much greater. World War II and the oppressive regimes involved were far, far worse than any sins committed by a Catholic country. The French revolution and similar revolutions in latin america and elsewhere were far bloodier than anything a Catholic country had ever done–not to mention the American civil war.

In fact, states governed by Catholic principles have been the most peaceful the world had seen since the pax romana. It was heresies and other rebellions that disturbed the public peace and created violence and social chaos–yes, it was sometimes true that the Catholic governments responed to these threats with excessive force in their zeal, and this is what we have righly apologized for.

But, our goal as Catholics is to bring about the reign of Christ the King through the evangelization of individuals and societies.

From the CCC:

2105 The duty of offering God genuine worship concerns man both individually and socially. This is "the traditional Catholic teaching on the moral duty of individuals and societies toward the true religion and the one Church of Christ."30 By constantly evangelizing men, the Church works toward enabling them "to infuse the Christian spirit into the mentality and mores, laws and structures of the communities in which [they] live."31 The social duty of Christians is to respect and awaken in each man the love of the true and the good. It requires them to make known the worship of the one true religion which subsists in the Catholic and apostolic Church.32 Christians are called to be the light of the world. Thus, the Church shows forth the kingship of Christ over all creation and in particular over human societies.33

Don’t buy into the lies of the Rationalists who wanted to destroy Catholic society and ban God from and truth from civil life.
 
Genesis315 said:
…The French revolution and similar revolutions in latin america and elsewhere were far bloodier than anything a Catholic country had ever done…
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The faith of the people of France and the countries of Latin America is, for the most part, that of the Catholic Church.
 
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