Wow there are a lot of Mormon (LDS) threads and members here

[dianaiad]

Pumpkin, could you please tell me why your religion is right, and ours is wrong?

You didn’t pay attention, did you?

He said, and I said…and every other Mormon I know of will say…we believe we are right and we will defend our beliefs; that is, we will attempt to illustrate or ‘prove’ our beliefs from scripture, and then will challenge you to study our faith and pray about it. YOU look. YOU compare; you are certainly in a better position to compare your beliefs to what we claim ours are.

But we will not tell you why yours is wrong. We don’t have to.

How can we do that, anyway? You know what your beliefs are far better than we do; it is a waste of time for us to argue with you about what you believe. We will simply present a choice. We are not, after all, the ones who have to make a decision here—we already did that. YOU are the one who must decide, between truth and untruth.

Once you see truth, does it matter which untruth you leave behind?

That’s how we view it.

I understand that some people don’t ‘get’ that. I understand that they cannot understand why it is not necessary to destroy someone’s faith before they will allow them to see yours. This may be because they don’t trust their own faith sufficiently to believe that it will shine above anything else out there, no matter what it may be.

I mean, if they did trust their own truth, why do they find it necessary to destroy the faith and beliefs of others before they will allow their own to be presented? That has always bewildered me.

 

[dianaiad]

I may be a bit hotter than you on the subject, but I agree wholeheartedly with your strategy. Given the LDS persecution complex, and basic Christian morality, hatred has no place in discussion of the subject. It is only the hard inner core of Mormonism (Brighamites, I call them), and their religion, and “creative history” that I have trouble with. Let’s calm down and be as objective as we can. Anger never got anyone anywhere good.

You are quite right, Jerusha. :ehh:

 

[RebeccaJ]

As I said in my post, I have run into perhaps two who would. Most of you are not ‘anti’s’ as I would categorize one.

Actually, the appropriate and Christian way to ‘do it.’ That is, to teach the truth, is to simply teach the truth as you believe it.

It’s like a hallway full of lanterns; if only one is lit, then it doesn’t matter how many are not, or what they look like, or how big they are; those carrying the unlit lanterns will put them down and pick up the light…and all the glowing lantern needs to do is shine its own light. It doesn’t need to point out the darkness in the others.

I have always wondered what it is about other religions that feel the need to do this; when they talk to me, for instance, it is as if they hide their light behind their backs so that I can’t see it–and won’t show it to me until I admit that what I carry isn’t as good as what they do.

How can I do that, if I don’t know what it is they have?

Invariably, what I get is 'you believe this and it’s wrong."…but without telling me a: why it’s so wrong and b; what they have that is better.

It is as if they define themselves by us; “You believe this and we don’t.” Which would be fine, if we actually happened to believe what ever it is they claim we do.

…and we usually don’t.

Oh, never mind. This is useless.

It would be ok for you to assume the light is there to begin with.

 

[Rleng616]

Yes, there’s plenty of us here.

We have our own and now we’re secretly taking over yours, mwahaha.

Whoops ^^;;

My kind of humor!!

 

[hosemonkey]

The LDS people I know (and I know quite a few) are some of the most sincere, thoughtful, spiritual, and devoted people there are. Let’s not judge other people’s motives. (the Lord’s prayer comes to mind here). As for LDS being pagan and non-Christian, that is utter rubbish. They’re every bit as Christian as the Arian’s were and no one ever called them non-Christian. If you wish to discuss the finer points of specific issues thats fine. But, this kind of hateful bigotry has no place here.

Just tellin’ it like it is,Bro. Nice people, but deluded. Jerusha is correct, we are “Gentiles” and destined to sweep the floors of the Celestial Kingdom for all eternity (If we’re lucky) I don’t “hate” anybody, but neither am I deceived. Nor do mormons want to be regarded as Christians, a failed religion that had the need to be “restored”. Do a little research, then call me a bigot. And where are the Arians today?

 

[LAMBOFGODGIRLY]

You didn’t pay attention, did you?

He said, and I said…and every other Mormon I know of will say…we believe we are right and we will defend our beliefs; that is, we will attempt to illustrate or ‘prove’ our beliefs from scripture, and then will challenge you to study our faith and pray about it. YOU look. YOU compare; you are certainly in a better position to compare your beliefs to what we claim ours are.

But we will not tell you why yours is wrong. We don’t have to.

How can we do that, anyway? You know what your beliefs are far better than we do; it is a waste of time for us to argue with you about what you believe. We will simply present a choice. We are not, after all, the ones who have to make a decision here—we already did that. YOU are the one who must decide, between truth and untruth.

Once you see truth, does it matter which untruth you leave behind?

That’s how we view it.

I understand that some people don’t ‘get’ that. I understand that they cannot understand why it is not necessary to destroy someone’s faith before they will allow them to see yours. This may be because they don’t trust their own faith sufficiently to believe that it will shine above anything else out there, no matter what it may be.

I mean, if they did trust their own truth, why do they find it necessary to destroy the faith and beliefs of others before they will allow their own to be presented? That has always bewildered me.

No one is trying to destroy Pumpkin’s faith! I simply asked a question because I am wondering why Pumpkin thinks the LDS religion is the true church! I just want to know why LDS believes in what they do and not that of the Catholic Faith! I just want to know what attracts people to LDS Faith instead of the Catholic Faith. You obviously took my question way into left field! I would never want to destroy someone!! Where would that get us if we were out to destroy? We are here in this non-catholic forum to discuss contrasting beliefs, and that is exactly what I was intending to do with my question! I am sorry you didn’t understand what I was intending the question to be.

 

[ParkerD]

No one is trying to destroy Pumpkin’s faith! I simply asked a question because I am wondering why Pumpkin thinks the LDS religion is the true church! I just want to know why LDS believes in what they do and not that of the Catholic Faith! I just want to know what attracts people to LDS Faith instead of the Catholic Faith. You obviously took my question way into left field! I would never want to destroy someone!! Where would that get us if we were out to destroy? We are here in this non-catholic forum to discuss contrasting beliefs, and that is exactly what I was intending to do with my question! I am sorry you didn’t understand what I was intending the question to be.

Lamb of God Girly,
I only look at this website once in a while lately, but I noticed your conversation here and felt it was important to add a personal insight. First, thanks for being patient and really kind-hearted in your approach here. You are a true Christian in every sense, and I appreciate “meeting” someone like you who asks sincere questions.

I assume we all believe that God knows the heart of every person, regardless of what church they belong to or where they live in the world. He loves everyone unconditionally, always. I assume we all acknowledge that this life is a learning process, happily so.

With those three basic premises, would it not be logical that a person moving in the direction of becoming more Christ-like (more loving and charitable, less argumentative and demanding, less angry and selfish, etc.) is moving in the direction that God wants them to move?

When the LDS speak of the fullness of truth in our church, it is because of our belief in on-going revelation that living prophets united with apostles receive from God. They guide us in moving in the direction of becoming more Christ-like, but that is not to say that anyone has “arrived”–“all come short of the glory of God” (far short). We all need grace, and we all also need patience with each other as we all move along encountering different aspects of truth in our lives that we can incorporate to help us become more Christ-like.

So I would say that many Catholics have much truth, and are moving in the same direction that I am moving, seeking to become more Christ-like. We LDS feel that the ordinances (like baptism by immersion for the remission of sins we have committed in life, and the gift of the Holy Spirit to be able to become sanctified) and covenants of the fullness of the gospel strengthen our focus and our innate ability to help in that process of becoming more Christ-like. We feel that the Holy Spirit really does guide our everyday life–in how we treat others, in how to live providently, in what field of work to go into, what education to pursue, perhaps how to make the connection that gets us a job we will enjoy–real, daily guidance in things that are not trivial for us personally.

But as Catholics move in the direction of becoming more Christ-like, then obviously there would be more similarities between a certain Catholic and a certain LDS person because they are moving toward the same goal, though perhaps at different rates of change and with the possibility of “wandering off” because of discouragement, temptations, or what have you (for either religious person). Becoming Christ-like is Bible-centered, Bible-taught, and I don’t think it’s necessarily measurable by what church a person belongs to.

Having said all that, I would say that what attracts people to the LDS church is that when they attend the LDS services, they find people who really do connect with the Holy Spirit in receiving guidance as I mentioned, so they find people who are really joyful, really committed to living Christ-like lives as best they can, while still making mistakes along the way and feeling acceptance anyway. It that exclusive to the LDS? Probably not. But having read in this forum a lot of Catholic comments, I tend to question how many really have Christ-like intentions and Christ-like daily living–at least they don’t come across as very loving and forgiving. (Not to offend anyone.) But, Lamb of God Girly, and also Stephen if he sees this, the two of you are stand-out Christians, and I thank you for these qualities that are apparent here.

 

[dianaiad]

Just tellin’ it like it is,Bro. Nice people, but deluded. Jerusha is correct, we are “Gentiles” and destined to sweep the floors of the Celestial Kingdom for all eternity (If we’re lucky) I don’t “hate” anybody, but neither am I deceived. Nor do mormons want to be regarded as Christians, a failed religion that had the need to be “restored”. Do a little research, then call me a bigot. And where are the Arians today?

Well, given that we claim to BE Christians…we just aren’t Catholics or Protestants, and given that we absolutely do NOT believe that ‘gentiles’ are destined to 'sweep the floors of the Celestial Kingdom" I don’t think that ‘bigot’ is the appropriate title for you.

“Ignorant” in the classic sense, perhaps–as in ‘unknowing.’ Of course, if you already understand that you just made two erroneous claims, then ‘bigot’ might work.

Only you know which it is.

 

[dianaiad]

No one is trying to destroy Pumpkin’s faith! I simply asked a question because I am wondering why Pumpkin thinks the LDS religion is the true church! I just want to know why LDS believes in what they do and not that of the Catholic Faith! I just want to know what attracts people to LDS Faith instead of the Catholic Faith. You obviously took my question way into left field! I would never want to destroy someone!! Where would that get us if we were out to destroy? We are here in this non-catholic forum to discuss contrasting beliefs, and that is exactly what I was intending to do with my question! I am sorry you didn’t understand what I was intending the question to be.

No, Jerusha. You weren’t attempting to destroy HIS. You were demanding that he prove you wrong…that he destroy yours…and that’s the point. We don’t proselyte that way–as you can see by Parker’s response.

 

[majick275]

No, Jerusha. You weren’t attempting to destroy HIS. You were demanding that he prove you wrong…that he destroy yours…and that’s the point. We don’t proselyte that way–as you can see by Parker’s response.

except for that great apostasy stuff…

 

[MelanieAnne]

I find it fascinating the number of people that actually believe, and state as fact, that they know the thoughts and motivations of people that are, to them, total strangers. They can see into their hearts, just like God. It must be a special gift. Or something.

 

[zaffiroborant]

No, Jerusha. You weren’t attempting to destroy HIS. You were demanding that he prove you wrong…that he destroy yours…and that’s the point. We don’t proselyte that way–as you can see by Parker’s response.

Oh I don’t know it looks like lesson 1 in the Preach my Gospel manual does just that. It is especially noticeable when you review the Key Points.

 

[Tmaque]

I agree that many LDS people are good examples of religious zeal for example. However to say that no-one ever called them non-Christian is untrue. Joseph and Brigham were quite clear that they were not Christians and had some very harsh things to say about Christians who were compared unfavourably with Moslems by the early LDS. Non Mormons including Christians are called ‘Gentiles’ in the LDS (not a positive term), further the Church does not consider them Christian in that they, unlike genuine Christians, have to be baptised on conversion to the Church. Mormonism is a terrible heresy and we cannot pretend otherwise even allowing what is positive in their lifestyles and commitment.

mormonproblems.blogspot.com

You misunderstand. I was explaining that no one ever said Arians were non-Christians, not even the Christians fighting against this great heresy. This is so even though they believed Jesus was a “lesser” God. They were not Trinitarian any more than LDS are.

Many people call LDS non-Christians. My point is that they have a double-standard.

 

[MelanieAnne]

You misunderstand. I was explaining that no one ever said Arians were non-Christians, not even the Christians fighting against this great heresy. This is so even though they believed Jesus was a “lesser” God. They were not Trinitarian any more than LDS are.

Many people call LDS non-Christians. My point is that they have a double-standard.

OK, but it is still significant that Mormons themselves objected to the term Christian being applied to them, at least initially. It seems to be just common sense that a person cannot object to a name if that’s the name they call themselves, or at least did call themselves at one time.

Fast forward to the present, and now that the Mormons are in the “re-writing history and doctrine” mode, they are claiming the term Christian applies to them just as much as anyone else. If that were true, why do they re-baptize when someone converts to their faith? And why do we re-baptize Mormons when they convert to ours? Clearly, there is something profoundly different between the rest of Christianity, no matter how fractured, and Mormonism.

 

[Tmaque]

Just tellin’ it like it is,Bro. Nice people, but deluded. Jerusha is correct, we are “Gentiles” and destined to sweep the floors of the Celestial Kingdom for all eternity (If we’re lucky) I don’t “hate” anybody, but neither am I deceived. Nor do mormons want to be regarded as Christians, a failed religion that had the need to be “restored”. Do a little research, then call me a bigot. And where are the Arians today?

What was your intention with your original post? If it was drive people away from the true Church of Christ, you succeeded. If it was to bring people the to the truth you should change your approach. You attract a lot more bees with honey than with vinegar.

As far as research goes my friend, I spent 24 years as an active LDS. I even went on a mission, been through the temple, the whole nine yards. I know the subject matter quite well.

 

[Tmaque]

OK, but it is still significant that Mormons themselves objected to the term Christian being applied to them, at least initially. It seems to be just common sense that a person cannot object to a name if that’s the name they call themselves, or at least did call themselves at one time.

Fast forward to the present, and now that the Mormons are in the “re-writing history and doctrine” mode, they are claiming the term Christian applies to them just as much as anyone else. If that were true, why do they re-baptize when someone converts to their faith? And why do we re-baptize Mormons when they convert to ours? Clearly, there is something profoundly different between the rest of Christianity, no matter how fractured, and Mormonism.

Melanie,

I don’t think LDS baptisms are valid. My point is that by calling them names and saying they’re “non-Christian” only drives a wedge and builds walls. I would love every Mormon to become Catholic. The way to do that is through fellowship, discussion, and understanding. If a Mormon thinks they’re a Christian I think it’s a great opportunity for discussion of the Trinity!

 

[RebeccaJ]

No, Jerusha. You weren’t attempting to destroy HIS. You were demanding that he prove you wrong…that he destroy yours…and that’s the point. We don’t proselyte that way–as you can see by Parker’s response.

Yes, ParkerD proselytes, and is judgmental…which seems to be a Mormon trait all around.

He essentially told Girly that all mormons are spriitual giants who seek to follow Christ while two, yes two, Catholics are just like that. He is trying to draw Girly to mormonism by telling her how awful Catholics are and how wonderful Mormons are. Just like Girly. If that is not attempting to destroy someones faith, I don’t know what is.

Weasley, needly, creepy, is my judgment of that.

 

[MelanieAnne]

Melanie,

I don’t think LDS baptisms are valid. My point is that by calling them names and saying they’re “non-Christian” only drives a wedge and builds walls. I would love every Mormon to become Catholic. The way to do that is through fellowship, discussion, and understanding. If a Mormon thinks they’re a Christian I think it’s a great opportunity for discussion of the Trinity!

Hi T,

Actually, Mormons have now co-opted the word “Trinity” and will occasionally use it to describe their version of the “Godhead”. Not sure what kind of discussion you’ll get from that.

While I understand and appreciate your drive towards fellowship, discussion and understanding, I also believe that if you’re going to invent a whole new religion, as the Mormons did, that you need to get your own vocabulary to go with it, not borrow on someone else’s.

I believe that the habit of Mormons using the vocabulary of Christianity while meaning things completely different from traditional understanding of those words and terms is at the very least confusing, and could even be deceptive.

 

[Tmaque]

Thank you. Catholics are among the most decent and honorable people on the planet. Unfortunately the Mormon apostates and anti-Mormons here give them a bad name. Anybody coming here and reading these threads will think that all the Catholics think the same way as they do, which of course they don’t. They are a negligible minority who happen to have found a voice here to vent their anti-Mormonism. They don’t represent the vast majority of Catholics at all.

And by the way, be wary of those who have just joined the forum and have few posts to their credit. They are often the same folks registering under multiple names. They try to give the impression that they are a bigger crowd than they are, or reinforce their own statements by patting themselves on the back. On some boards registering under multiple names is banned. I wish they would adopt the same policy here.

zerinus

Zerinius,

I am a “Mormon apostate”. It seems you are guilty of stereotyping as well.

I love LDS people, I just happen to think they are dead wrong. I know many “Mormon apostates” who, like me, are not “anti-Mormon”, just pro-truth.

 

[MelanieAnne]

Zerinius,

I am a “Mormon apostate”. It seems you are guilty of stereotyping as well.

I love LDS people, I just happen to think they are dead wrong. I know many “Mormon apostates” who, like me, are not “anti-Mormon”, just pro-truth.

T, there are some Mormons who post regularly to this forum. I believe that most of them are farming for converts, but there could be a few that aren’t and I don’t pretend I can see into their hearts (although some of them appear to believe they themselves have that ability!)

Through much experience with this area of the forum, the nearly inescapable conclusion is that Mormons take any disagreement as a personal attack and label the person an “anti”. There are a few exceptions, although one exception that comes to mind also claims the ability to read minds so it’s hard to know what that’s all about.

I believe, and it appears you do as well, that a person can believe that the religious doctrines of Mormonism are false, while we can still appreciate our Mormon friends. We’re not anti-Mormon or anti-anything, but rather pro-Truth. Perhaps, in some philosophical sense, Mormons can have the same sort of attitudes towards those of other faiths. But here in the forum, it just doesn’t seem to work that way. Instead, there’s often a reflexive victimization, even paranoia, at any hint of disagreement. It would be good if that could change, but I haven’t seen much evidence that there is any opportunity for that.