WSJ: Whatever Happened to Global Warming?

[Theo520]

I reiterate, man made climate change is a myth! These “scientists” are all backed by money from those who would personally profit from a worldwide conversion to green energy sources; Al Gore being the most heinous of them…

NO, it’s a legitimate theory, not a ‘myth’
Scientists all agree CO2 sensitivity is somewhere between 1 and 9.

• if it’s near 1.5 then man’s impact is inconsequential (supported by temp history)
• if it’s above 4, then we can influence the climate (not supported by temp history)

Skeptics would be more successful in educating their community if they acknowledged the actual science of it all, rather than appear as Luddites.

 

[estesbob]

NO, it’s a legitimate theory, not a ‘myth’
Scientists all agree CO2 sensitivity is somewhere between 1 and 9.

• if it’s near 1.5 then man’s impact is inconsequential (supported by temp history)
• if it’s above 4, then we can influence the climate (not supported by temp history)

Skeptics would be more successful in educating their community if they acknowledged the actual science of it all, rather than appear as Luddites.

Alarmists would be more successful in educating Their community if warming was actually taking place

 

[Theo520]

Alarmists would be more successful in educating Their community if warming was actually taking place

No, you have that backwards

• Alarmists have already convinced their community
• Alarmists are finally losing some ground because of the unforecasted ‘pause’

Alarmists keep their base by using a strawman, by projecting skeptics as ‘science deniers’
Fight the strawman.

 

[Ridgerunner]

When you consider indirect costs for the military to ensure a steady oil flow and the externalities of harms and deaths from these sources (mainly out of sight, out of mind), then there is absolutely no comparison. The subsidies and tax-breaks alt energy gets are NOTHING by comparison and they should give more. But go ahead and believe what you will and I’ll stick to my knowledge and understanding.

One needs to recognize that all of the military costs related to keeping oil flowing (to the extent that’s the purpose) benefit others in the world a lot more than us in the U.S. The U.S. military costs are also related to keeping a lot of people in the world safer than they would otherwise be, to stop aggression, and so on. You really can’t legitimately ascribe much of the cost of the military to U.S. use of oil. To the extent the U.S. imports oil, it’s almost entirely from Canada and Mexico, and has been for years. No wars there.

As to all the alleged toxic effects, my impression is that they are pretty speculative. Never will I forget when the government shut down the town of Times Beach, Mo and moved everybody out because of the “deadly” effects of dioxin-laden oil that was spread on the streets. Later on, the government figured out it wasn’t a hazard at all, and now it’s a public park.

One cannot believe most of the “you’re being poisoned” literature out there. I daresay, however, that there’s plenty of incredibly toxic materials in a Volt.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Then I choose to believe the US Tax Code, the Department of Energy, and congressional budget reports. All of these show that there have been zero subsidies to coal or petroleum, while “green” companies are getting hundreds of millions. If you want to look at tax breaks, oil companies receive on the order of $1-2 billion per year. “Green” companies? $4-5 billion. If we look at all tax breaks, subsidies, R&D investments, etc combined, then the picture is even more skewed: Oil companies get between $2-3 billion, while “greens” get $5-6 billion.

All that money for less efficiency, less capacity, and more (and more dangerous) pollution.

That’s the first time I’ve heard having more is “NOTHING”. How much more than oil should they receive? They’re already getting more than double. Should it be 4 times? 8? 10? Where will this money come from?

to my understanding, the “tax breaks” are actually depreciation for expenditures made, just like every company in the U.S. gets. I do believe there is “accelerated depreciation” for small oil producers. But then, farmers and small businesses of other sorts get “accelerated depreciation” too for productive equipment expenditures up to a certain amount.

 

[sps49]

One needs to recognize that all of the military costs related to keeping oil flowing (to the extent that’s the purpose) benefit others in the world a lot more than us in the U.S. The U.S. military costs are also related to keeping a lot of people in the world safer than they would otherwise be, to stop aggression, and so on. You really can’t legitimately ascribe much of the cost of the military to U.S. use of oil. To the extent the U.S. imports oil, it’s almost entirely from Canada and Mexico, and has been for years. No wars there.

As to all the alleged toxic effects, my impression is that they are pretty speculative. Never will I forget when the government shut down the town of Times Beach, Mo and moved everybody out because of the “deadly” effects of dioxin-laden oil that was spread on the streets. Later on, the government figured out it wasn’t a hazard at all, and now it’s a public park.

One cannot believe most of the “you’re being poisoned” literature out there. I daresay, however, that there’s plenty of incredibly toxic materials in a Volt.

I just love lynnvincs” externalities. Assumed in lynnvinc’s analysis is virtually no boundary conditions (read that as the entire world), and you get to promote “associations” to “direct causes” when it supports ideology.

 

[lynnvinc]

youtube.com/watch?v=DJuRjy9k7GA

Kathy Jetnil-Kijiner, 26 year old poet of the Marhall Islands, addresses the opening of the Climate Summit in New York. To her baby, to the world:

dear matafele peinam,
you are a seven month old sunrise of gummy smiles
you are bald as an egg and bald as the buddha
you are thunder thighs and lightning shrieks so excited for bananas, hugs
and our morning walks past the lagoon

dear matafele peinam,
i want to tell you about that lagoon that lucid, sleepy lagoon lounging against the sunrise
some men say that one day that lagoon will devour you
they say it will gnaw at the shoreline
chew at the roots of your breadfruit trees
gulp down rows of your seawalls
and crunch your island’s shattered bones
they say you, your daughter
and your granddaughter, too
will wander rootless
with only a passport to call home

dear matafele peinam,
don’t cry
mommy promises you
no one
will come and devour you
no greedy whale of a company
sharking through political seas
no backwater bullying of businesses with broken morals no blindfolded
bureaucracies gonna push
this mother ocean over
the edge
no one’s drowning, baby
no one’s moving
no one’s losing
their homeland
no one’s gonna become
a climate change refugee
or should i say
no one else

to the carteret islanders of papua new guinea
and to the taro islanders of fiji
i take this moment
to apologize to you

we are drawing the line here
because baby we are going to fight
your mommy daddy
bubu jimma your country and president too
we will all fight
and even though there are those
hidden behind platinum titles
who like to pretend
that we don’t exist
that the marshall islands
tuvalu
kiribati
maldives
and typhoon haiyan in the philippines
and floods of pakistan, algeria, and colombia
and all the hurricanes, earthquakes, and tidalwaves
didn’t exist

still
there are those
who see us
hands reaching out
fists raising up
banners unfurling
megaphones booming
and we are
canoes blocking coal ships
we are
the radiance of solar villages
we are
the rich clean soil of the farmer’s past
we are
petitions blooming from teenage fingertips
we are
families biking, recycling, reusing,
engineers dreaming, designing, building,
artists painting, dancing, writing
we are spreading the word
and there are thousands out on the street
marching with signs
hand in hand
chanting for change NOW

they’re marching for you, baby
they’re marching for us
because we deserve to do more than just
survive
we deserve
to thrive

dear matafele peinam,
you are eyes heavy
with drowsy weight
so just close those eyes, baby
and sleep in peace
because we won’t let you down
you’ll see

 

[estesbob]

to my understanding, the “tax breaks” are actually depreciation for expenditures made, just like every company in the U.S. gets. I do believe there is “accelerated depreciation” for small oil producers. But then, farmers and small businesses of other sorts get “accelerated depreciation” too for productive equipment expenditures up to a certain amount.

Correct.

 

[lynnvinc]

from priceofoil.org/fossil-fuel-subsidies/

Fossil Fuel Subsidies: Overview

What is a fossil fuel subsidy?

A fossil fuel subsidy is any government action that lowers the cost of fossil fuel energy production, raises the price received by energy producers or lowers the price paid by energy consumers. There are a lot of activities under this simple definition—tax breaks and giveaways, but also loans at favorable rates, price controls, purchase requirements and a whole lot of other things. – priceofoil.org/content/uploads/2009/09/koplowtypesofsubsidy.pdf

How much money does the U.S. government provide to support the oil, gas and coal industries?

In the United States, credible estimates of annual fossil fuel subsidies range from $10 billion to $52 billion annually yet these don’t even include costs borne by taxpayers related to the climate, local environmental, and health impacts of the fossil fuel industry.

 

[sps49]

from priceofoil.org/fossil-fuel-subsidies/

Fossil Fuel Subsidies: Overview

What is a fossil fuel subsidy?

A fossil fuel subsidy is any government action that lowers the cost of fossil fuel energy production, raises the price received by energy producers or lowers the price paid by energy consumers. There are a lot of activities under this simple definition—tax breaks and giveaways, but also loans at favorable rates, price controls, purchase requirements and a whole lot of other things. – priceofoil.org/content/uploads/2009/09/koplowtypesofsubsidy.pdf

How much money does the U.S. government provide to support the oil, gas and coal industries?

In the United States, credible estimates of annual fossil fuel subsidies range from $10 billion to $52 billion annually yet these don’t even include costs borne by taxpayers related to the climate, local environmental, and health impacts of the fossil fuel industry.

The scale may confuse you into believing that there is a problem. If you look instead at the “subsidy” paid by consumers per unit of energy, “Federal Taxpayer Subsidies as a Percent of Total Spending,” you discover that it is much less than the “subsidy” that is attributed to alternative energy:

window.state.tx.us/specialrpt/energy/subsidies/

Note that wind and solar receive 11.6% and 12.3% vs 0.5% for oil and gas. This metric shows how skewed the prices are for alternative energy. It is always better to have all the facts in a discussion, yes?

 

[estesbob]

I wonder if They will let me read my poem.

Said the climate scientist ,with a gleam in his eye
If you don’t cut carbon emissions you surely will die
Emissions increased but the temps didn’t rise
And the scientist shakes his head and mutters “why”?

 

[sps49]

I wonder if They will let me read my poem.

Said the climate scientist ,with a gleam in his eye
If you don’t cut carbon emissions you surely will die
Emissions increased but the temps didn’t rise
And the scientist shakes his head and mutters “why”?

If they round us up I’ll let you know…

 

[Hans_W]

I wonder if They will let me read my poem.

Said the climate scientist ,with a gleam in his eye
If you don’t cut carbon emissions you surely will die
Emissions increased but the temps didn’t rise
And the scientist shakes his head and mutters “why”?

That’s so funny!

Scientists always ask “why?”. It’s their job to find out why things happen. For example they ask why does most of the heat go into the oceans. And they have found lots of explanations why that is happening. Every day we find out more.

I think you are still at the stage where you don’t know that the oceans are warming. We’ve known that for years. Try to keep up to date.

 

[lynnvinc]

The scale may confuse you into believing that there is a problem. If you look instead at the “subsidy” paid by consumers per unit of energy, “Federal Taxpayer Subsidies as a Percent of Total Spending,” you discover that it is much less than the “subsidy” that is attributed to alternative energy:

window.state.tx.us/specialrpt/energy/subsidies/

Note that wind and solar receive 11.6% and 12.3% vs 0.5% for oil and gas. This metric shows how skewed the prices are for alternative energy. It is always better to have all the facts in a discussion, yes?

Yes, but the whole idea is to reduce the harming and killing of people thru fossil fuels. Life is worth something.

 

[sps49]

Yes, but the whole idea is to reduce the harming and killing of people thru fossil fuels. Life is worth something.

I think you need to pick a target with which you have some influence. There is free will and evil in the world, but fossil fuels are not the source of either. The tools of civilization, be it stone, bronze, iron, wood, coal, oil, gas, or nuclear all have risk associated with them. To suggest that you can have a civilization without risk is peculiar and without precedent. Not acknowledging this risk and assigning an attribute such as evil to it like we did 3000 years ago is the real crime, the crime of lying to yourself.

 

[Peter_Plato]

… A #%$&#* lie …

A bold-faced #%$&#* LIE!

'Cuse my French.

Careful, now!

It is emissions like those that will cause not just warming, but global heating.

 

[lynnvinc]

Careful, now!

It is emissions like those that will cause not just warming, but global heating.

 

[RGCheek]

Life is worth something.

Yes as actual proof is worth something.

 

[estesbob]

That’s so funny!

Scientists always ask “why?”. It’s their job to find out why things happen. For example they ask why does most of the heat go into the oceans. And they have found lots of explanations why that is happening. Every day we find out more.

I think you are still at the stage where you don’t know that the oceans are warming. We’ve known that for years. Try to keep up to date.

Yes at least count they had 57 different explanations as to why AGW is taking place even though it’s not.Perhaps the reason is simple-they were wrong.

 

[estesbob]

youtube.com/watch?v=DJuRjy9k7GA

Kathy Jetnil-Kijiner, 26 year old poet of the Marhall Islands, addresses the opening of the Climate Summit in New York. To her baby, to the world:

dear matafele peinam,
you are a seven month old sunrise of gummy smiles
you are bald as an egg and bald as the buddha
you are thunder thighs and lightning shrieks so excited for bananas, hugs
and our morning walks past the lagoon

dear matafele peinam,
i want to tell you about that lagoon that lucid, sleepy lagoon lounging against the sunrise
some men say that one day that lagoon will devour you
they say it will gnaw at the shoreline
chew at the roots of your breadfruit trees
gulp down rows of your seawalls
and crunch your island’s shattered bones
they say you, your daughter
and your granddaughter, too
will wander rootless
with only a passport to call home

dear matafele peinam,
don’t cry
mommy promises you
no one
will come and devour you
no greedy whale of a company
sharking through political seas
no backwater bullying of businesses with broken morals no blindfolded
bureaucracies gonna push
this mother ocean over
the edge
no one’s drowning, baby
no one’s moving
no one’s losing
their homeland
no one’s gonna become
a climate change refugee
or should i say
no one else

to the carteret islanders of papua new guinea
and to the taro islanders of fiji
i take this moment
to apologize to you

we are drawing the line here
because baby we are going to fight
your mommy daddy
bubu jimma your country and president too
we will all fight
and even though there are those
hidden behind platinum titles
who like to pretend
that we don’t exist
that the marshall islands
tuvalu
kiribati
maldives
and typhoon haiyan in the philippines
and floods of pakistan, algeria, and colombia
and all the hurricanes, earthquakes, and tidalwaves
didn’t exist

still
there are those
who see us
hands reaching out
fists raising up
banners unfurling
megaphones booming
and we are
canoes blocking coal ships
we are
the radiance of solar villages
we are
the rich clean soil of the farmer’s past
we are
petitions blooming from teenage fingertips
we are
families biking, recycling, reusing,
engineers dreaming, designing, building,
artists painting, dancing, writing
we are spreading the word
and there are thousands out on the street
marching with signs
hand in hand
chanting for change NOW

they’re marching for you, baby
they’re marching for us
because we deserve to do more than just
survive
we deserve
to thrive

dear matafele peinam,
you are eyes heavy
with drowsy weight
so just close those eyes, baby
and sleep in peace
because we won’t let you down
you’ll see

The scientist said with a gleam in his eyes
If we don’t cut carbon emissions we will surely die
BUT emissions increased and the temperatures did not rise
And the scientists response was a sad Oh my!