WWYD? "Please stand and greet your neighbor."

[Erikaspirit16]

I really don’t know where any of this ownership talk comes from.

The English language. You are “welcomed” into Walmart. “Welcome to my home.” Look at my welcome mat! For that matter, you are “welcomed” into the Catholic church at baptism–you were outside, now you’re inside. The idea is, literally, that “your coming is pleasing”…and of course one definition of welcome even talks about being a “guest.” And that’s my point. I am not a guest in my own home. By saying “Welcome…” you are, in fact, telling me this is not my home. I beg to differ.

No one is saying any of those things, except in your mind. Repugnant? That’s a pretty intense word.

This, I think, is symptomatic, and it’s perhaps what bothers me the most–by far. Read my last two sentences again: “I understand that this is not the message that “greeters” may intend; but the “greeters” and those who support them also have to understand that this is how their message is received by a sizable proportion of the population. We are not “wrong” or “stupid” or “unsocial” for thinking this way.”

Communication goes two ways. I’m sorry to get so basic, but it seems I have to. There is a sender and a receiver. Both are necessary. If I say “Duck!” I–the sender–have a clear idea what I mean. But the other person–the receiver–doesn’t. The receiver thinks “Wait a minute: does he mean there is a small bird I should look at or does he mean I am in danger from something?” Whoops, too late…

When you say “No one is saying those things, except in your mind” you are making my point for me. “no one is saying” = the sender. And I explicitly said “I understand that this is not the message that “greeters” may intend…” In other words, I recognize there are multiple messages that could be received, and I recognize that I am not receiving the message you may have sent. Just as if you yell “Duck!” I realize you are sending a clear message in your own mind; but it’s ambiguous to the receiver.

But what you are doing is what I explicitly asked readers NOT to do in my final sentence: “We are not “wrong” or “stupid” or “unsocial” for thinking this way.” I understand your point of view; but why are you denying that my point of view is in any way valid?

And yes, “repugnant” is a very strong word. I use words intentionally. I have very strong feelings about this, so I used a very strong word. Greeting me with “welcome” when I enter a church is repugnant to me. Once again, I understand that you may feel differently. Do me the courtesy of acknowledging that I (and others) may feel differently than you do, and that our feelings are just as valid as yours.

When your family comes home, or you go to your relatives homes, do they not greet you and say hello? I doubt they are thinking “this is **my **house. You are a stranger here. You are welcome, but always keep in mind this is **my **home.”

So I am not sure where all of that comes from.

My family in my own home–and I suspect everyone’s family–would not use the word “welcome” for reasons I have already explained. They may say “Where have you been?” or “We missed you!” or “Dinner’s ready in five minutes.” Or any number of things. But not “welcome.”

 

[SuperHappy]

Now that is something that you and I can completely agree on.

I’m glad we can agree!!

 

[SuperHappy]

I think the thing that some people are missing is that the OP said they call for the greeting and it is immediately followed by the opening hymn. I understand that people want quiet before mass begins to pray, I am not disputing that. But at the point that the 30 seconds of greeting begins, the opening hymn is going to come next. Without the greeting, people would have had 30 seconds more of prayer time? If people need that 30 seconds, again, maybe they should come a bit earlier. By 30 seconds I guess.

That’s exactly what I meant.

Either that or they should dedicate more time to prayer in general. One minute shouldn’t be such a disturbance unless Mass is the only time a person is in prayer.

 

[SuperHappy]

You have made a good point, and I will try to elaborate. When I enter my own house, no one “welcomes” me; no one tells me I have to introduce myself; no one sees me as “lonely” in my own house. The church–any Catholic church in the world–is my home. The idea that I have to be “welcomed” into my own home is repugnant. To do so is to say to me “This is my church. You are a stranger here. You are welcome, but always keep in mind this is my church, not yours.” I understand that this is not the message that “greeters” may intend; but the “greeters” and those who support them also have to understand that this is how their message is received by a sizable proportion of the population. We are not “wrong” or “stupid” or “unsocial” for thinking this way.

Wow, you really have strong feelings about this. I would venture to say that most people who enter the church and don’t know anyone there would not feel that it is “repugnant” for someone to greet them. Most people like to feel welcomed and the Pastor is facilitating that with a short hello.

I am glad you never feel uncomfortable or that you need a greeting. It must be so nice to not feel awkward or to want interaction. I just know that I am not that way and a small gesture of hello or good morning is always appreciated even if it is at a mandated time during the service.

 

[SuperHappy]

But when I enter my home, any family members who are there greet me. I’ve never been to a Catholic Church in which a person entering a pew has been given a smile or a head nod in greeting, unless they are know each other, most often from non-church activities.

I’ve been going to daily Mass since I retired eight years ago. In those eight years, two people have spoken to me. Two.

This thread has made me realize that Catholics don’t have a reputation for being unwelcoming and stand-offish. They are unwelcoming and stand-offish.

In my entire, large Catholic family my DD is the only one in her generation who still practices the faith. And when the others talk about their new religious affiliations, they always describe how much they enjoy being part of a “church family” and how important it is to them. People have a basic need for community and fellowship.

The Mass is a communal worship service, not a private prayer. How can one be part of a community gathered to worship as a family when the members don’t even make eye contact with those around them?

During the Mass we call to mind the sacrifice Jesus made for us, giving his life for our salvation. Is a smile, a nod, a handshake that makes others feel welcome too much of a sacrifice for us to make?

This is exactly what I am talking about. People need community, they need to feel welcome in church.

Why have an actual campaign about “Come home, we welcome you with open arms” if the reality is “come to church but don’t expect anything when you get here, we don’t really care if you are here or not.”

I can’t believe a simple greeting time is so disdained by so many and that some are actually offended by it. I read every post and respect each opinion, I just am really surprised by the responses.

 

[1neophyte]

This is exactly what I am talking about. People need community, they need to feel welcome in church.

Why have an actual campaign about “Come home, we welcome you with open arms” if the reality is “come to church but don’t expect anything when you get here, we don’t really care if you are here or not.”

I can’t believe a simple greeting time is so disdained by so many and that some are actually offended by it. I read every post and respect each opinion, I just am really surprised by the responses.

The reality is certainly not “don’t expect anything when you get here.” We’re talking about the Catholic mass. If someone goes to mass alone, and after receiving the Body and Blood of Jesus…for free…leaves feeling disappointed that “they didn’t get anything” because no one spoke to them, then something is radically wrong. This is why Erikaspirit feels strongly about it and uses deliberate and vivid language. There are countless situations and places one can go to feel affirmed and welcomed. Mass is unique. We are quite literally entering Heaven on earth. If we are not awestruck, and instead engage in chit-chat and hollow greetings without a second thought, then as I said, something is radically wrong.

 

[Erikaspirit16]

I said a few days ago I was bowing out of all this, but I can see that after 11 pages people are simply arguing in isolation, and not understanding each other. So I’m going to take another shot at it.

We are all debating two totally separate issues. But most posters are combining the two issues by treating them as the same issue. So what are the two issues?

1. Those who go to Mass in a Catholic church are not seen (by some) as friendly and open to the idea of meeting new people. There is not a feeling of inclusiveness or community. Some people would like to be more social and friendly.

Fair enough. I agree. There was another thread last week on this subject that was deleted (presumably because criticism, even if indirect or implied, is not allowed). People were making much the same point, but not specifically about the Mass, as they are here. It was more about the parish in general. I actually suggested a list of 10 things parishes could do to get more people involved in parish affairs. Maybe it was my post that caused them to pull the plug.

1. The second issue: Is it appropriate to have a mandated informal greeting to those around you in the nave of the church just before Mass?

No. It’s not. Easter Joy in his/her post #121 discussed one aspect–so far he/she is the only one in 11 pages to have mentioned it. In my earlier posts (#23 on p. 2 and #36 on p. 3) I made similar points. I don’t think anyone understood what I was saying. So I’m going to have another crack at it.

Let’s start with an analogy. You are a man who has taken his girlfriend out to dinner to propose marriage. You have brushed your teeth, combed your hair, and are wearing your best suit. You have selected a romantic restaurant because of its ambience, its music, and the level of service and food. You begin talking to your girlfriend about how much you love her, how much you have in common, etc. etc. And all of a sudden one of your friends, dressed in a T-shirt and a bit drunk, comes up to your table and says “How about those Penguins? Wasn’t that a great game? Crosby’s the best!!!” In another context, you wouldn’t mind. You’d probably be glad your friend came up to you to discuss hockey. In this context? No, he’s the last person you wanted to see. He’s broken the mood. Wrong place, wrong time.

Similarly let’s take a look at the Mass.

The Mass takes place in a setting outside the everyday world. The church is recognizably (I hope) a place of worship, not an auditorium or sports arena. It faces East. It has stained glass windows to remind you of various saints or Bible stories. It has the stations of the cross to remind you of the passion and resurrection. It has certain symbolic numbers built into it–three steps to the altar, 12 pillars, etc. It has an altar as a centerpiece. The altar is a symbol of sacrifice. It contains holy relics. There is a tabernacle containing the Eucharist, which you believe contains the real presence of God. There is a special light to signify this, and the tabernacle is gold, not stainless steel or plastic. You bless yourself with holy water as you enter by making the sign of the cross. You genuflect (I am being a bit absurd here since I haven’t seen anyone genuflect outside of Latin Mass) before entering your pew. You are dressed (I hope) in your Sunday best, not shorts and a tank top. You have brushed your hair and have taken a shower.

Now let’s take a look at the Mass itself. The priest represents Christ. Some of the prayers date back 2,000 years. The structure of the Mass is intentional. It’s not just a jumble of prayers, it’s building up to something and has a beginning, middle, and end.The priest is dressed like a Roman in special vestments. He doesn’t just ad lib, he follows prescribed ritual gestures and prayers. The assistants (altar servers, readers, ushers, etc.) all have assigned tasks to make things run smoothly. Everyone stands, kneels, and sits together, not just randomly. The music is not a rundown of the top 40 that week, it’s recognizably liturgical music, and the words reflect scripture. You are witnessing a reenactment of the act of salvation.

Do you understand my point? While in the nave of the church before Mass, you have left the outside world behind and have entered a ritualistic space and time. Everything has been carefully designed to create a reverent and holy feeling.

And into this the guy next to you says “Hi! I’m Harry, and this is my wife Effie!” Is this the place? Is this the time? No.

Is the Mass a communal prayer? Of course. We do things in unison. Should we love our neighbor? Of course. Does that mean that we need to greet those sitting around us in the nave, just before Mass? No. Does it matter if it takes 10 seconds or 10 minutes? No. It’s simply inappropriate, and to interject it in this place at this time means you just don’t understand where you are or what you are doing there.

Easter Joy reminded us what it was like pre-Vatican II. If someone leaned over and asked how you were doing, you’d answer “Let’s talk outside after Mass.” It was a venial sin to talk in church. There was a sense of where you were, why you were there, and the proper behavior associated with Mass. For the most part, all that is gone. You might as well be at a picnic in the park. And of course if you were at a picnic, you would quite rightly say “Why aren’t these people more friendly?” But it’s not a picnic.

What bothers me most in this thread, as in many other threads on this site and in real world conversations as well, is that some people take it for granted that they are “right” and that anyone who disagrees is “wrong.” There is no acknowledgement that another point of view is possible, let alone valid. And that, to quote our Great Leader, is sad.

 

[Erikaspirit16]

I can’t believe a simple greeting time is so disdained by so many and that some are actually offended by it. I read every post and respect each opinion, I just am really surprised by the responses.

Why are you surprised? This is exactly what I’m talking about–the other side can’t even imagine that there is another side, let alone that it has a valid point of view.

I acknowledge your point of view, and I respect it. Please acknowledge my point of view and respect it.

 

[Erikaspirit16]

Wow, you really have strong feelings about this. I would venture to say that most people who enter the church and don’t know anyone there would not feel that it is “repugnant” for someone to greet them. Most people like to feel welcomed and the Pastor is facilitating that with a short hello.

I am glad you never feel uncomfortable or that you need a greeting. It must be so nice to not feel awkward or to want interaction. I just know that I am not that way and a small gesture of hello or good morning is always appreciated even if it is at a mandated time during the service.

Why do you go to Mass? To meet people? Or to worship God? I’m not trying to be obnoxious, I think it’s a valid question. I agree 100% that parishes could foster a better sense of community, inclusiveness, and friendliness. But NOT in the nave of the church and NOT just before Mass. Wrong place, wrong time.

 

[misspriss]

… And all of a sudden one of your friends, dressed in a T-shirt and a bit drunk, comes up to your table and says “How about those Penguins? Wasn’t that a great game? Crosby’s the best!!!”

And into this the guy next to you says “Hi! I’m Harry, and this is my wife Effie!”

How are these two greetings even remotely similar?

I don’t think it’s a sign of the times. I think it’s a Catholic thing. Every other denomination doesn’t seem to have a problem with community.

 

[Erikaspirit16]

This is exactly what I am talking about. People need community, they need to feel welcome in church.

Why have an actual campaign about “Come home, we welcome you with open arms” if the reality is “come to church but don’t expect anything when you get here, we don’t really care if you are here or not.”

This reminds me of my best friend. Raised Catholic, this person converted and is now a Methodist. I asked why. The answer was “It makes me feel better.” Your first sentence talks about “what people need.” I would strongly suggest that we do not go to Mass to fulfill our needs or to make ourselves “feel better.” We go to worship God. If that makes you feel better, or it fulfills one of your needs, good for you. But that should be a by-product, not the central reason for going to Mass.

 

[randomuser]

But when I enter my home, any family members who are there greet me. I’ve never been to a Catholic Church in which a person entering a pew has been given a smile or a head nod in greeting, unless they are know each other, most often from non-church activities.

I’ve been going to daily Mass since I retired eight years ago. In those eight years, two people have spoken to me. Two.

This thread has made me realize that Catholics don’t have a reputation for being unwelcoming and stand-offish. They are unwelcoming and stand-offish.

In my entire, large Catholic family my DD is the only one in her generation who still practices the faith. And when the others talk about their new religious affiliations, they always describe how much they enjoy being part of a “church family” and how important it is to them. People have a basic need for community and fellowship.

The Mass is a communal worship service, not a private prayer. How can one be part of a community gathered to worship as a family when the members don’t even make eye contact with those around them?

During the Mass we call to mind the sacrifice Jesus made for us, giving his life for our salvation. Is a smile, a nod, a handshake that makes others feel welcome too much of a sacrifice for us to make?

 

[Erikaspirit16]

How are these two greetings even remotely similar?

I don’t think it’s a sign of the times. I think it’s a Catholic thing. Every other denomination doesn’t seem to have a problem with community.

They are similar because they are both joltingly out of place and inappropriate. They are similar because in each case the person who is acting inappropriate means well. They are similar because in each case the objection is not who the person is or what they are saying, in objective terms, it’s the inappropriateness of what they are saying in that particular place at that particular time. See?

I like analogies so let me try this one: You father just died and you are at the funeral home greeting friends. One friend comes up to you and says “I hope you can make it to the party tomorrow.” Wrong place. Wrong time. Inappropriate.

 

[Erikaspirit16]

The reality is certainly not “don’t expect anything when you get here.” We’re talking about the Catholic mass. If someone goes to mass alone, and after receiving the Body and Blood of Jesus…for free…leaves feeling disappointed that “they didn’t get anything” because no one spoke to them, then something is radically wrong. This is why Erikaspirit feels strongly about it and uses deliberate and vivid language. There are countless situations and places one can go to feel affirmed and welcomed. Mass is unique. We are quite literally entering Heaven on earth. If we are not awestruck, and instead engage in chit-chat and hollow greetings without a second thought, then as I said, something is radically wrong.

Well, at least someone here gets it! Thank you.

 

[misspriss]

They are similar because they are both joltingly out of place and inappropriate. They are similar because in each case the person who is acting inappropriate means well. They are similar because in each case the objection is not who the person is or what they are saying, in objective terms, it’s the inappropriateness of what they are saying in that particular place at that particular time. See?

I like analogies so let me try this one: You father just died and you are at the funeral home greeting friends. One friend comes up to you and says “I hope you can make it to the party tomorrow.” Wrong place. Wrong time. Inappropriate.

No, one is crass and inappropriate, the sports buddy was probably not dressed or showered appropriately for the restaurant, considering his drunkenness, probalby showed no respect for the venue.

One is respectful and polite and appropriate in the context. Assuming Harry and his wife Effie also showered, dressed in their Sunday best, walked into the same church you did, crossed themselves with holy water as well, and genuflected when they entered the pew (still quite common here, sorry it isn’t where you live), knelt and prayed, and spoke to you in a respectful tone, extending a polite hand of greeting (not welcome, I assume people have a problem with that word).

 

[misspriss]

They are similar because they are both joltingly out of place and inappropriate. They are similar because in each case the person who is acting inappropriate means well. They are similar because in each case the objection is not who the person is or what they are saying, in objective terms, it’s the inappropriateness of what they are saying in that particular place at that particular time. See?

I like analogies so let me try this one: You father just died and you are at the funeral home greeting friends. One friend comes up to you and says “I hope you can make it to the party tomorrow.” Wrong place. Wrong time. Inappropriate.

You are basically saying that your fellow mass-going parishioners are no better than a drunk guy at a fancy restaurant.

 

[Millie123]

They are similar because they are both joltingly out of place and inappropriate. They are similar because in each case the person who is acting inappropriate means well. They are similar because in each case the objection is not who the person is or what they are saying, in objective terms, it’s the inappropriateness of what they are saying in that particular place at that particular time. See?

I like analogies so let me try this one: You father just died and you are at the funeral home greeting friends. One friend comes up to you and says “I hope you can make it to the party tomorrow.” Wrong place. Wrong time. Inappropriate.

I dont think your analogies are similar. Ive been to funerals before and have been told “I am happy you came, it really means a lot that you are here” That is both a welcoming and a greeting. How is that different than a greeter welcoming you in church?

 

[Erikaspirit16]

Every other denomination doesn’t seem to have a problem with community.

Read my post on p. 11. No, every other denomination doesn’t have a problem with community [by which I assume you mean socializing during the service]. But the other denominations don’t see their service the way that Catholics see (or should see) the Mass. So they act differently. Makes sense to me.

 

[misspriss]

Read my post on p. 11. No, every other denomination doesn’t have a problem with community [by which I assume you mean socializing during the service]. But the other denominations don’t see their service the way that Catholics see (or should see) the Mass. So they act differently. Makes sense to me.

The Orthodox are not dissimilar from Catholics, but they do “community” better.

 

[Erikaspirit16]

No, one is crass and inappropriate, the sports buddy was probably not dressed or showered appropriately for the restaurant, considering his drunkenness, probalby showed no respect for the venue.

One is respectful and polite and appropriate in the context. Assuming Harry and his wife Effie also showered, dressed in their Sunday best, walked into the same church you did, crossed themselves with holy water as well, and genuflected when they entered the pew (still quite common here, sorry it isn’t where you live), knelt and prayed, and spoke to you in a respectful tone, extending a polite hand of greeting (not welcome, I assume people have a problem with that word).

I understand that you, and almost everyone on this thread, would see the two examples as completely different. I do not. To me they are both wildly inappropriate.