Yes, in hell, but why forever

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oliver109 said:
the body has been torn into 1000 pieces by the crash, now the soul is still attached we could say to a piece of his body, the soul does not have a specific size, you could theoretically shrink someone to such a small size that they are microscopic. Now the soul will be able to be moved with the body to a different region.
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That violates basic anatomy. A cell in my stomach is not my body. It is a cell. It is a part of not my body. I am not my stomach. My stomach is a part of me.
 
What is ones body? how much does one have to amputate before one becomes bodyless? I have heard that a human can survive with only their head for a matter of seconds, is the soul located in the brain?
 
You attach the soul to 1/1000 pieces of body? But then shrink the body to move the whole body, after attaching the soul to 1/1000 piece of it. Completely incoherent
 
God could shrink the body to 1000th of it’s size, God could mysteriously move the soul and body from a street in Chicago to an island in Alaska without anyone knowing.
 
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oliver109 said:
God could shrink the soul to 1000th of it’s size
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No, because the soul has no size. There is nothing to size down.
oliver109 said:
God could mysteriously move the soul and body from a street in Chicago to an island in Alaska without anyone knowing.
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God could also keep that person from having such a fatal accident happen to them in the first place instead of doing something that extreme. But He didn’t.
 
Maybe that fatal accident happened with Gods will because be could bring about a greater good that would emerge from it, we have all heard the question about why God allows terrible things to happen, maybe that accident was the result of a wicked person using their freewill, God does not prevent evil from happening but it is nice to see good triumphing from it.
 
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oliver109 said:
Maybe that fatal accident happened with Gods will because be could bring about a greater good that would emerge from it,
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Yes like that the sinners would never repent so God was saving countless future victims from the sinners wrath
 
Yes God could have done it to stop the priest from destroying lives, I still fail to see how he would never repent, someone who goes to Confession monthly is unlikely to never repent.
 
oliver109 said:
I still fail to see how he would never repent, someone who goes to Confession monthly is unlikely to never repent.
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Just because you go to confession monthly doesn’t mean that all is fine and dandy in your spiritual life. You could go to confession every day and still die in a state of mortal sin if you don’t take steps to actually amend your life and stop sinning mortally.
 
I think it is a sign of someone who is interested in going to Heaven and who crucially is keen to avoid “choosing Hell” so could they really die in a true state of mortal sin? in a true state of enmity with God? Pope Benedict made a division between different types of sinners in Spe Salvi and he mentioned that there are those who never want to repent and then there are those who do respond to God but often fail to do what is right but their heart is still in the right place.
 
oliver109 said:
I think it is a sign of someone who is interested in going to Heaven and who crucially is keen to avoid “choosing Hell” so could they really die in a true state of mortal sin?
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Yes. Because in spite of that “interest” they chose mortal sin anyway.
oliver109 said:
in a true state of enmity with God?
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That’s mortal sin, yes.
oliver109 said:
Pope Benedict made a division between different types of sinners in Spe Salvi and he mentioned that there are those who never want to repent and then there are those who do respond to God but often fail to do what is right but their heart is still in the right place.
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http://w2.vatican.va/content/benedi...uments/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20071130_spe-salvi.html
“For the great majority of people—we may suppose—there remains in the depths of their being an ultimate interior openness to truth, to love, to God. In the concrete choices of life, however, it is covered over by ever new compromises with evil—much filth covers purity, but the thirst for purity remains and it still constantly re-emerges from all that is base and remains present in the soul. What happens to such individuals when they appear before the Judge? Will all the impurity they have amassed through life suddenly cease to matter? What else might occur? Saint Paul, in his First Letter to the Corinthians, gives us an idea of the differing impact of God’s judgement according to each person’s particular circumstances. He does this using images which in some way try to express the invisible, without it being possible for us to conceptualize these images—simply because we can neither see into the world beyond death nor do we have any experience of it. Paul begins by saying that Christian life is built upon a common foundation: Jesus Christ. This foundation endures. If we have stood firm on this foundation and built our life upon it, we know that it cannot be taken away from us even in death. Then Paul continues: “Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw—each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire” (1 Cor 3:12-15). In this text, it is in any case evident that our salvation can take different forms, that some of what is built may be burned down, that in order to be saved we personally have to pass through “fire” so as to become fully open to receiving God and able to take our place at the table of the eternal marriage-feast.”
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Sounds like Pope Benedict was talking about purgatory, which one does not ever go to in a state of mortal sin.
 
When you sin mortally you are not as you put it completely cut off from God, you need to renew the relationship by going to Confession and doing good deeds but you are not finished in Gods eyes, the only time you can be in a proper state of mortal sin is when you love your sin so much that you have no wish to repent, no wish to confess, such a person is impossible for God to save.
 
oliver109 said:
I think that it would be completely possible, it is as sane as believing in bilocation or transubstantiation.
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Except that with those examples we have reliable witnesses and the word of God.
With you extra-planetary hypothesis, we have pure conjecture.

People are not taken to other planets to make a final amends with God.
You are either ready when you die, or you are not ready when you die.
 
Magnanimity said:
Yes, it precisely is just what’s being discussed here.
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No… it would only be the case if we assented to the proposition that humans are unable to choose God on their own. That might be the assertion from a Protestant perspective, if you want to interpret “total depravity” in that way, but that’s not what Catholic theology teaches.
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Magnanimity:
But, the only type of person who would not want to be where he was made to be (beatitude) would be the person who was so disordered that what is called for is intervention. This person cannot even see that he was created, designed and built for such an existence–beatific vision.
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This, too, flows from the “total depravity” line of thought. In Catholic theology, we say that people – having been baptized – are in fact able to cooperate with God’s grace and choose to reject sin. Come to think of it, we even say that those who do not know Christ are able to choose God in the ways that they perceive the ‘good’.
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Magnanimity:
And I want you to address @Gorgias, my thought-experiment of “Sarah,”
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Magnanimity said:
Hell, according to typical, Catholic understanding, entails neverending suffering and torment for Sarah.
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The Church teaches that the primary suffering of hell is separation from God.
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Magnanimity:
This means that God will hold Sarah in existence to perpetually suffer for all time.
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No… this means that God holds Sarah in existence to perpetually experience what she chose by virtue of choosing sin: to be in existence apart from God.
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Magnanimity:
I would like to see an argument for how It could be that God loves Sarah after her death. Love is, again following Saint Thomas Aquinas, to will and work for the good of the other, as other. So when holding Sarah in existence perpetually into the future in a state of torment and suffering, how exactly is it that God is willing and working for her good?
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If you want to follow Thomas, then look at his discussion of the souls in hell: it’s all about God’s justice. So, it’s “good” that God acts justly with respect to Sarah, and we can rest on that thought.
Magnanimity said:
Of course, the context of my allusion to Romans 7 had nothing to do with me wondering about what will save us from ourselves or from sin.
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I know… that’s because it answers the objection you raise. 😉
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Magnanimity:
None of us ever finds herself completely free of outside or interior influence when choosing
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That’s not what’s in play, however. The question is whether we’re sufficiently free to make our own decision, influences notwithstanding. You seem to be saying “no”, which would imply that God really is a tyrant – He sets us up to make a free will choice, knowing we’re unable to make a free will choice! :roll_eyes:
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Magnanimity:
And who are those people? Give some examples of these “absolutely free” individuals.
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I think you’re asking me to enumerate those who have sinned mortally? That’s kinda above my pay grade… 😉
 
oliver109 said:
When you sin mortally you are not as you put it completely cut off from God, you need to renew the relationship by going to Confession and doing good deeds but you are not finished in Gods eyes, the only time you can be in a proper state of mortal sin is when you love your sin so much that you have no wish to repent, no wish to confess, such a person is impossible for God to save.
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That is not Church teaching.
 
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