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DeniseNY
Guest
My simplistic view on this is if hell weren’t forever, it would mean people would have the chance to repent and accept God only after they experienced for themselves that hell is real.
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stpurl
Guest
So you’re saying it’s not you being unfair for sinning and not repenting (that would be the only way you would 'wind up in hell"), but God for ‘sending a plane to crash on your house’?
Sounds to me like you’re thinking of God as somebody who is out to get a poor little guy who only does one itty bitty mortal sin instead of God who created you with perfect love and has been offering everything in the universe, including His Only Begotten Son, to give you the opportunity to choose heaven. . .
Sounds to me like you’re thinking of God as somebody who is out to get a poor little guy who only does one itty bitty mortal sin instead of God who created you with perfect love and has been offering everything in the universe, including His Only Begotten Son, to give you the opportunity to choose heaven. . .
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oliver109
Guest
I am saying that it is unfair that God would not give another chance for the person to ask for forgiveness, there is a day of reckoning but are we not supposed to forgive 77x7? supposing you had a wife who kept sleeping with other men every month, would you not forgive her when she asks you for forgiveness? As St Therese of Liseaux said: “Even if I had committed all possible crimes, I would still have the same confidence; I would feel that this multitude of offenses would be like a drop of water thrown into the flaming furnace of God’s love.”
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stpurl
Guest
Oliver, if I had a wife I’d be a man (and I’m not).
God DOES give everyone sufficient chances to be saved. But once you have died, you have already made your decision. It’s not that God wouldn’t forgive you, it’s that you would not ever–ever–want to be forgiven.
Picture it like this: God, “I love you. Repent your sin and enter heaven rejoicing” and He says this ‘eternally’. Person, “I hate you God and I will not repent and I will remain in hell” and he says this eternally.
That’s what it is. It isn’t that God doesn’t offer ‘another chance’, it’s that no matter how many chances are offered, the person always says, “No I will not repent”.
It’s hard perhaps to understand because this doesn’t happen in linear time where a person dies on April 25, 2019, and on April 26, 2019 God asks, “Are you sure you won’t repent?” “I won’t” and on April 27, 2019 God asks, “Are you sure?” “I won’t” and then say on November 3, 16,299,000 the person finally says, "Well, I’m tired of hell so yes, I’ll repent’.
When we die we are ‘outside of time’ just like God is. (remember, since He created time, and everything else, He can’t be inside it ‘for good’. Jesus ‘entered time’ with a human body, but He left it, and once He returns the whole universe ‘ends’ but infinity/eternity has been around before ‘time’ and will continue ‘after’ it). The Father has never ‘gone into’ time. He existed from infinity, created time, will at some point ‘end’ time, and continue in infinity in heaven.
So once we ‘enter infinity’ we are in a sense ‘out of time’. We will be in a kind of ‘now’ that goes on and on. So what we choose at the point we ‘exit’ time will be what we ‘continue to choose’.
And it is fair.
Here’s a question for you. Let’s suppose there is a real jerk of a man. He lies, cheats, steals, and murders. Then one day he ‘comes to his senses’, repents his sins, and instantly after he does so, a plane crashes into his house and he dies. . .and he goes to heaven.
Is this fair?
God DOES give everyone sufficient chances to be saved. But once you have died, you have already made your decision. It’s not that God wouldn’t forgive you, it’s that you would not ever–ever–want to be forgiven.
Picture it like this: God, “I love you. Repent your sin and enter heaven rejoicing” and He says this ‘eternally’. Person, “I hate you God and I will not repent and I will remain in hell” and he says this eternally.
That’s what it is. It isn’t that God doesn’t offer ‘another chance’, it’s that no matter how many chances are offered, the person always says, “No I will not repent”.
It’s hard perhaps to understand because this doesn’t happen in linear time where a person dies on April 25, 2019, and on April 26, 2019 God asks, “Are you sure you won’t repent?” “I won’t” and on April 27, 2019 God asks, “Are you sure?” “I won’t” and then say on November 3, 16,299,000 the person finally says, "Well, I’m tired of hell so yes, I’ll repent’.
When we die we are ‘outside of time’ just like God is. (remember, since He created time, and everything else, He can’t be inside it ‘for good’. Jesus ‘entered time’ with a human body, but He left it, and once He returns the whole universe ‘ends’ but infinity/eternity has been around before ‘time’ and will continue ‘after’ it). The Father has never ‘gone into’ time. He existed from infinity, created time, will at some point ‘end’ time, and continue in infinity in heaven.
So once we ‘enter infinity’ we are in a sense ‘out of time’. We will be in a kind of ‘now’ that goes on and on. So what we choose at the point we ‘exit’ time will be what we ‘continue to choose’.
And it is fair.
Here’s a question for you. Let’s suppose there is a real jerk of a man. He lies, cheats, steals, and murders. Then one day he ‘comes to his senses’, repents his sins, and instantly after he does so, a plane crashes into his house and he dies. . .and he goes to heaven.
Is this fair?
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Magnanimity
Guest
All of these intuitions are entirely on point. No one derives a belief in a neverending prison-like state (Hell) from contemplating the nature of a God who is Goodness itself (or is love itself). Nor does anyone derive a belief in an inescapable, neverending realm of torment and suffering from contemplating the nature of humanity (humans ever seek some good—in all their acts).
So, if the belief in Hell does not derive from the nature of God or from the nature of humanity, where does the belief come from? The belief has its strongest support from the church in the West during the Middle Ages. Outside of this space and timeframe, there is not a lot of support. And yet, all the greatest thinkers of the church have read the same NT passages. They all read the gospels and most of them read Revelation. So how could it be that there is such a lack of unanimity on Hell in the church over time?
If one begins with the very sure and steady beliefs that the Father is all Good and loves all men, women and children, one would not naturally be lead to any idea even approximating an inescapable realm of everlasting suffering and torment as a place of punishment.
All of the above quotes that I listed-of hesitation toward the idea of Hell, the seeming incomprehensibility of it-all of this is the intuitive sense that we have of the incommensurability between the God who is love and the existence of such a realm.
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oliver109
Guest
Why does God let us die is that not outside our free will? Supposing someone would rather live forever in their current state than to die, why would God not honor that instead of forcing them to die and meaning that their will remains fixed?
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meltzerboy2
Guest
Do you mean they continue to sin AFTER they die? Probably not, but it sounded that way.
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Wesrock
Guest
Yes. They continue to deliberately set their wills against God.
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meltzerboy2
Guest
And this is Church teaching? It just seems odd to me that one still has free will in hell.
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Magnanimity
Guest
Against God and toward what in particular? Human wills are oriented toward some good(s). What are the goods in Hell that the human orients himself to?
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oliver109
Guest
Why instead of God allowing a soul to be separated just after it has committed a mortal sin does he not personally beg the soul to repent and give the soul a sort of Confession in the moments BEFORE he separates the soul from it’s body. A body may look dead but for all we know it could be alive and God trying to work wonders.
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JimG
Guest
Maybe when some people realize that there is no sex in heaven, they don’t want to enter.
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Magnanimity
Guest
The analogy of the coin is probably misleading, as if to suggest that these are the two most basic truths about God. The analogy of a many sided diamond is probably better. Not to quibble, but it’s a significant difference.
I’m not sure what this means. What you want God to be toward you is the loving father. You do not seek his justice for yourself (what you have earned, deserve). You seek his mercy and his forgiveness, both of which transcend justice. They are “higher goods” than the good of justice, in a manner of speaking.
This is just an assertion in need of an argument. Since many of the greatest minds in the history of the church have disbelieved in a place of neverending torment and suffering, then it just might be the case that an infinitely loving God is incompatible with the persistence of such a reality. As I said, Hell does not come from pondering the nature of the infinitely loving Divinity, nor from pondering the nature of humanity itself. It comes from something “outside” of those things.
True enough, but if Hell were so easily reconcilable with a Good God, it’s reasonable to think that the church would have spoken with a more united voice on this issue. It hasn’t.
I’m not sure what this means. What you want God to be toward you is the loving father. You do not seek his justice for yourself (what you have earned, deserve). You seek his mercy and his forgiveness, both of which transcend justice. They are “higher goods” than the good of justice, in a manner of speaking.
This is just an assertion in need of an argument. Since many of the greatest minds in the history of the church have disbelieved in a place of neverending torment and suffering, then it just might be the case that an infinitely loving God is incompatible with the persistence of such a reality. As I said, Hell does not come from pondering the nature of the infinitely loving Divinity, nor from pondering the nature of humanity itself. It comes from something “outside” of those things.
True enough, but if Hell were so easily reconcilable with a Good God, it’s reasonable to think that the church would have spoken with a more united voice on this issue. It hasn’t.
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Nicene
Guest
Don’t forget catechism sections 1043-1060. A new heaven and a new earth, and revelation 21:8, the second death, as well as the creed:
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and the Son he is worshipped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets. We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come.
People often speak of heaven forever but forget the resurrection.
Peace and God Bless
Nicene
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and the Son he is worshipped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets. We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come.
People often speak of heaven forever but forget the resurrection.
Peace and God Bless
Nicene
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ioannes_pius
Guest
Because mortal sin is an infinite offence against God.
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Magnanimity
Guest
Thank you Agatha, and May God bless you. Tell you what, I’ll read yours if you read mine.
All I ever try to do around these parts is to broaden my fellow Catholics’ minds toward the entire church’s multivalent approach to the question of Hell and the afterlife. It has never been the case that there has only been one view.
Since you recognize the discomfort in accepting the Hell as presented by the Catholic Church in the Middle Ages, I hope you’ll broaden your own mind to the realization of the many and varied approaches that not a few saints and theologians have taken throughout the ages.
Peace be with you!
All I ever try to do around these parts is to broaden my fellow Catholics’ minds toward the entire church’s multivalent approach to the question of Hell and the afterlife. It has never been the case that there has only been one view.
Since you recognize the discomfort in accepting the Hell as presented by the Catholic Church in the Middle Ages, I hope you’ll broaden your own mind to the realization of the many and varied approaches that not a few saints and theologians have taken throughout the ages.
Peace be with you!
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Magnanimity
Guest
Just as you are incapable of infinitely loving God (since you and all your acts are finite), so too, you are incapable of infinitely offending God. God is indeed infinite, but that has nothing to do with your actions, all of which are limited and constrained.
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Wesrock
Guest
The vices they were attached to in this life.Wesrock:
Against God and toward what in particular? Human wills are oriented toward some good(s). What are the goods in Hell that the human orients himself to?
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ioannes_pius
Guest
Allow me to clarify myself.
Sins are infinite insofar as they offend the Infinite Being. Consequently, sins procure infinite consequences.
Sins are infinite insofar as they offend the Infinite Being. Consequently, sins procure infinite consequences.
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Wesrock
Guest
It’s not de fide dogma but it’s supported by numerous theologians. We may understand free will differently, too. Free will simply means the choice is yours. Without a body one no longer thinks discursively or has numerous appetites pulling them in different directions. So how they order their will at death is how it remains. I could explain this better, but rushing. It’s why we consider the angels to have free will but why we consider their choice of where to order their will irrevocable. It’s not that they’re blocked from exercising their will, but it’s not in their nature to change what they’ve freely chosen. Even after the restoration of the body, though, it’s important to understand that Christians believe the only way to turn away from sin is by the grace of God. Without that grace, which is withheld from those in Hellx and being left only to their own agency, they choose under their own agency to remain in sin.
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