Yes, in hell, but why forever

[Magnanimity]

Thank you Agatha. I will read yours, as well.

Hmm, I think perhaps I didn’t communicate myself correctly. What I was trying to say is that many of the best and brightest of all the church spread over time have questioned the existence of a realm of unending torment and suffering into which people are cast as punishment. So, I’m talking about the church of the early fathers, the contemporary church, the church of the East (Catholic and Orthodox)—all these ages of the church outside of the church of the Middle Ages in the West— have been suspicious of Hell as St Augustine presents it. That’s all I meant.

But perhaps by “mother church” you’re just referring to the teaching of the catechism. If so, then I understand what you mean.

Good night, and all the best to you in your studies!

 

[Magnanimity]

All vices here and now still aim at some good. All goodness comes from God as its source. But if the Good is absent from Hell, the question still stands: What are the goods in Hell that the human orients himself to?

 

[Magnanimity]

Sins are infinite insofar as they offend the Infinite Being.

I don’t know anyone who would claim that they infinitely love God. Whenever you love God, you do so in whatever limited way you’re capable of. The logic must hold in the converse relation as well. Yet you want to claim that we can infinitely offend God, although all our actions are, of their very natures, finite. I don’t see how you have justified the opinion. But it’s a hard one. I’ve read St Thomas Aquinas on this very issue. It’s a tough position to defend… We all can accept that God is infinite. But I’m looking for the magic that turns your finite act into an act entailing an infinite ramification.

 

[Isearch]

They still have free will, but free to choose only evil choices; this is similar to both angels and saints in heaven, free to choose only the infinite goods found in God Himself.

 

[Hoosier-Daddy]

Obviously some people’s heaven can be evil or wrong then.

 

[Elf01]

But how can one know if they are truly repentant or not? surely God can only allow someone to condemn themselves if they are absolutely certain of their unrepentance? I can tell you that I am not certain about being repentant or not, I hope I am repentant and I sure do feel repentant but I am not certain that I am. I still think it would be unfair if a plane crashed on my house in the next minute and I ended up in Hell.

God knows. I trust that he will give us every opportunity to repent.

Why instead of God allowing a soul to be separated just after it has committed a mortal sin does he not personally beg the soul to repent and give the soul a sort of Confession in the moments BEFORE he separates the soul from it’s body. A body may look dead but for all we know it could be alive and God trying to work wonders.

He may. I don’t think it is against Church teaching and it makes sense to me.

They still have free will, but free to choose only evil choices; this is similar to both angels and saints in heaven, free to choose only the infinite goods found in God Himself.

I disagree. I think it’s more they will only choose evil rather than can.

For heaven I have the analogy of choosing between our favourite foods (morally good choices) and rotten food (morally bad choices). Technically we can choose the rotten food but because we see that it is rotten and there is delicious food also on offer we won’t.

I suppose those in hell see the rotten food as delicious and vice versa.

 

[OneSheep]

So, if the belief in Hell does not derive from the nature of God or from the nature of humanity, where does the belief come from? The belief has its strongest support from the church in the West during the Middle Ages

Let’s put the question this way: Why is the belief in eternal hell attractive to people?

If one begins with the very sure and steady beliefs that the Father is all Good and loves all men, women and children, one would not naturally be lead to any idea even approximating an inescapable realm of everlasting suffering and torment as a place of punishment.

All of the above quotes that I listed-of hesitation toward the idea of Hell, the seeming incomprehensibility of it-all of this is the intuitive sense that we have of the incommensurability between the God who is love and the existence of such a realm.

And that is referring to the intuitive sense about God’s image, and the ramifications of that image.

What about the image of humanity, such that people will knowingly choose hell? Does that also strike some incommensurability concerning what you intuit about people’s will?

 

[JimG]

Do universalists believe that Satan and all the fallen angels are or will be in heaven? I also wonder, if universalism is true, why should anyone follow any religion or bother with any moral rules at all. Why did Jesus become Incarnate

 

[Magnanimity]

Let’s put the question this way: Why is the belief in eternal hell attractive to people?

All joking aside, outside of a sadistic urge, I cannot fathom a reason for anyone to desire there to be a realm of neverending torment and suffering from which there is no escape. I do not think that is why there are Hell apologists—because Hell is thought to be somehow reasonable or necessary, given the divine and/or the human.

Some folks are apologists for Hell bc the church in the West during the Middle Ages held to a belief (following St Augustine) that a state of perpetual, inescapable suffering and torment exists and is taught in the NT. That is it. That’s all I can see.

And that is referring to the intuitive sense about God’s image, and the ramifications of that image.

It’s intuiting, but it’s more than that for many of us. In my own case, I’m thoroughly Thomistic in my understanding of God: His existence and nature. Once one accepts that vision of God, the Augustinian Hell seems highly problematic. (And yes, I know St Thomas followed St Augustine here…)

that people will knowingly choose hell? Does that also strike some incommensurability

Yes, for sure. As Aristotle and St Thomas both believed (and I think is obviously true) all human acts are aimed at some good(s). Those goods can be disordered. They can be less than the best. They can have internal privations within them that make them “off” somehow. But humans ever aim at goods. That is the essence of a human will. That’s what a human will perpetually does. That’s how it functions.

So what goods are aimed at in the Augustinian Hell? If these poor humans are absent from God, they are absent from the Good itself. So toward what are the oriented for all time? Toward no good? Idk what that would even mean.

 

[Magnanimity]

Do universalists believe that Satan and all the fallen angels are or will be in heaven?

Many universalists do, yes, along with the entire created order. They teach a restoration of all things (Acts 3:21). (Some wouldn’t though or would be agnostic on the matter.) In the new heavens and new earth all is made new-ALL: animals, humans, angels.

Why did Jesus become Incarnate

To bridge the gap between the fallen world and God—to become the firstfruits of the new created order: the first resurrection to new life (1 Cor 15).

if universalism is true, why should anyone follow any religion or bother with any moral rules at all.

To seek that which is good, true and beautiful are fundamentally human activities. We all do this. If God has made us for himself and our hearts are restless until they find their rest in Him, why wouldn’t we be religious and moral? We are ever seeking him bc to be united with the Good is our final end—that toward which we are headed and aspiring. It is what we are meant for. As St Thomas Aquinas stated, God made man for beatitude. It is in our very core to seek the good, the true and the beautiful.

If you disagree with any of this, I would just turn the question back to you—why would you bother with religion or morality, if it is not in your very nature to do so?

 

[JimG]

I follow Catholic teaching because I believe it to be true, and handed down by Jesus. I do not want to be in the position of arguing with God at my judgment that hell should not exist.

 

[Magnanimity]

I follow Catholic teaching because I believe it to be true, and handed down by Jesus.

Ok, that reason wouldn’t be any different for a person who believes in the restoration of all things.

I do not want to be in the position of arguing with God at my judgment that hell should not exist

I’m sure God’s love and mercy will exceed everyone’s wildest expectations—even those poor souls who believed that He was capable of punishing and tormenting for all time some of His beloved creatures…

 

[OneSheep]

I cannot fathom a reason for anyone to desire there to be a realm of neverending torment and suffering from which there is no escape

Do you see that those who wanted the crucifixion were desiring justice? And when we are seeing the tormented as deserving punishment, that in our minds the value of the “evildoer” is negative? (non-deliberately dehumanized?)

because Hell is thought to be somehow reasonable or necessary, given the divine and/or the human.

And if the conscience is equated with God, then if one finds it unconscionable to release an evildoer (conditional love/forgiveness), then one will not be able to imagine a God who would do something against the conscience. So yes, one can see how a person could find eternal hell reasonable, correct? They would do so without being sadistic, but perhaps unconscious. When I found it reasonable, I was mostly unconscious. I am a little more conscious now, I hope.

It seems to me that when one has an image of a conditionally loving/forgiving God, then the idea of an everlasting hell is perfectly reasonable. Agree?

It’s intuiting, but it’s more than that for many of us. In my own case, I’m thoroughly Thomistic in my understanding of God: His existence and nature. Once one accepts that vision of God, the Augustinian Hell seems highly problematic. (And yes, I know St Thomas followed St Augustine here…)

Perhaps intuiting is more than the book stuff! Did Thomas A. support an eternal hell? If so, why?

So what goods are aimed at in the Augustinian Hell? If these poor humans are absent from God, they are absent from the Good itself. So toward what are the oriented for all time? Toward no good? Idk what that would even mean.

Yes, people want what they see is best. Therefore, even the choice for hell would involve seeing hell as what is best. Therefore, the chooser would be very much lacking in awareness. Given that, in hell they could very well see that what is there is what is best, with the same state of having a complete lack of awareness.

The question begged is “Would God even allow a person to choose hell with such blindness?” Since “with God, all things are possible” it would seem that God could supply the sinner with some very eye-opening experiences.

 

[Gorgias]

As for heaven or hell being real places to get to, I’m not a believer.

As Archbishop Sheen is quoted as having quipped, “when you get there, you will!”

But how can one know if they are truly repentant or not?

Even St Paul said that he cannot be certain of the state of his soul, and therefore, cannot answer the question “am I going to heaven?”; only God knows that.

However, if you approach the sacrament of Reconciliation, with contrition and a firm commitment to avoid sin – even if that ‘contrition’ is only “I don’t want to go to hell!!!” – and you hear the priest say the words “I absolve you in the name of the Father…” then you can know with certainty that your sins have been forgiven you!

So, if the belief in Hell does not derive from the nature of God or from the nature of humanity, where does the belief come from? The belief has its strongest support from the church in the West during the Middle Ages. Outside of this space and timeframe, there is not a lot of support.

Umm… I think you’re forgetting about Jesus’ words, captured in Scripture, on the subject.

It has never been the case that there has only been one view.

Where there are more than one person thinking, there will always be more than one view.

However, the question is whether there’s more than one authoritative teaching from the Church. There isn’t: hell is eternal; it’s part of the deposit of the faith.

perhaps by “mother church” you’re just referring to the teaching of the catechism.

Well… anything else, besides the teaching of the magisterium, is just opinion, wouldn’t you say?

OneSheep:

Let’s put the question this way: Why is the belief in eternal hell attractive to people?

I can think of one good reason right off the top of my head: the notion that our actions here in this life actually have meaning and impact is an attractive notion! Otherwise, we’re just puppets on a string, wouldn’t you say?

All joking aside, outside of a sadistic urge, I cannot fathom a reason for anyone to desire there to be a realm of neverending torment and suffering from which there is no escape.

Oh, folks don’t want to go there, of course. But, they choose it nevertheless by their actions. Think of it this way: no drug user sits down and says, “why, by jove, I think I do want to become a junkie and die young!” Yet, by their choices and actions, they actually do make that choice.

Magnanimity:

As Aristotle and St Thomas both believed (and I think is obviously true) all human acts are aimed at some good(s).

You’re misquoting, I’m afraid. They’re aimed at some perceived good. That doesn’t mean that they’re actually good.

Magnanimity:

So what goods are aimed at in the Augustinian Hell?

The ones that were mistakenly perceived as being ‘good’, but are , in actuality, not good.

 

[OneSheep]

I can think of one good reason right off the top of my head: the notion that our actions here in this life actually have meaning and impact is an attractive notion!

Exactly. And the idea that there is an everlasting hell is a good, meaningful impact that punishes people for their own unacceptance of God is reasonable. It is what the conscience calls for; i.e, anything less is unconscionable, and God is totally in sync with one’s conscience.

Is that what you are saying, or something else?

The ones that were mistakenly perceived as being ‘good’, but are , in actuality, not good .

I agree, but over time, when we suffer long enough, we realize when something is not good, right? Many of us have to learn the hard way. On the other hand, if the person is so used to suffering, then hell may seem very normal, right?

So the individual is so desensitized to suffering that hell makes no difference to him. And especially if he knows nothing better, its just normal and it doesn’t get any better anyway.

One might wonder, though, what our loving Father’s reaction to such a spectacle might be…

 

[Gorgias]

Exactly. And the idea that there is an everlasting hell is a good, meaningful impact that punishes people for their own unacceptance of God is reasonable. It is what the conscience calls for; i.e, anything less is unconscionable, and God is totally in sync with one’s conscience.

Is that what you are saying, or something else?

Yep!

However, instead of phrasing it as “hell is punishment”, I think I’d say “hell is giving people what their actions demonstrate they truly want – namely, eternal separation from God.”

 

[PrisonerOfChrist]

An infinite punishment is befitting for infinite offenses.

 

[OneSheep]

Yep!

However, instead of phrasing it as “hell is punishment”, I think I’d say “hell is giving people what their actions demonstrate they truly want – namely, eternal separation from God .”

So, we all have a capacity for cognitive empathy, which involves, for example, putting ourselves in the place of the other, determining what they “truly want”.

And you are certain that what people “truly want”, is by their actions, right? If they want to commit some sin, they truly want eternal separation from God.

Or, are there other possibilities? Could a person truly want God, for example, but behaves from a position of lack of awareness, blinded by their own want of wealth, power, autonomy, or even justice?

 

[Gorgias]

over time, when we suffer long enough, we realize when something is not good, right? Many of us have to learn the hard way. On the other hand, if the person is so used to suffering, then hell may seem very normal, right?

So the individual is so desensitized to suffering that hell makes no difference to him. And especially if he knows nothing better, its just normal and it doesn’t get any better anyway.

I would disagree. The Church teaches that the primary suffering of hell isn’t physical torture, per se – it’s the knowledge that one has chosen to definitively separate himself from God for eternity.

So, no matter how bad a person has it here on earth, the suffering in hell is different and worse: he realizes that he rejected the opportunity to choose an eternity of bliss in heaven. Not as a matter of faith, or of hope – in hell, people realize that heaven is real, and if only they’d chosen differently, then they’d have attained it.

So the individual is so desensitized to suffering that hell makes no difference to him.

Nope. Hell is a different kind of suffering, and is not experienced here on earth. There’s no way to be desensitized to something you’ve never experienced…

One might wonder, though, what our loving Father’s reaction to such a spectacle might be…

If the choice is imputable to the person, His reaction is “I’ll give you what you want.” If the choice is not imputable to the person, we believe that His reaction is “I’ll give you the heaven that you would have wanted, if you were able to make the free choice.”

 

[Gorgias]

Could a person truly want God, for example, but behaves from a position of lack of awareness, blinded by their own want of wealth, power, autonomy, or even justice?

“Lack of awareness” would mean that it’s not mortal sin, then, right? And therefore, not worthy of losing eternal bliss.

It’s not all that hard a question, although some folks want to make it seem like it is:

• if you are able to make a free choice:
  • … and you choose God (through your actions): heaven
  • … and you choose “not God” (through your actions): hell
• if you are unable to make a free choice: heaven

On the other hand…

• if you do not know God or Christ:
  • … but by your actions, you choose goodness: heaven
  • … but by your actions, you choose “not the good”: hell