Because that is what the Church teaches.
Most would prefer the church stick to teaching truth.
It is not logically impossible, any more than putting a person in prison for a short while gives them a taste of what life in prison means. It is not the same, but keep in mind that the question is if you would do this for your own adult child if your child is hell-bent (p.i.) on their decision. Would you, or would you not do this (taste of hell), in order that they might make a more informed decision?
Jesus did not wait for contrition when He forgave the crowd. There were no conditions.
I never suggested imposing any punishment, justified or unjustified.
It is human nature, and chimpanzee nature, for that matter, to punish wrongdoing. The punishment is hurtful, but it is not evil. What the ghosts are doing is scary, but not evil. Keep in mind that it is a very serious sin to say “the Spirit is not working there” when the Spirit is indeed working there. The Spirit works in various ways, it is best not to second-guess what the Spirit is doing.
This has absolutely nothing to do with the point I was making, or this discussion for that matter.
Again, your image of God is such that His forgiveness depends on the state of mind/heart of his child. It is a very natural image, an understandable image, but it is not the only image of God that is available to humanity.
Fauken is right. And I believe that, as it’s a change of heart prompted by the Holy Spirit, and if you…
I personally believe that God who searches the heart and mind would take this into account.
I won’t go into each thing.
God has imposed (and will impose) his will on you left, right and center, over the course of your entire existence. He created you, quite apart from your consent. You were given a certain IQ. You came into the world in a certain race, class and gender, etc. He sent you certain friends. Gave you particular parents, siblings, weird uncles, etc, etc, etc. I don’t quite have the patience to repeat the examples I gave above of all the innumerable factors that have nothing to do with your freedom or choice–all of which are imposed on you. You didn’t determine any of them.
Rather, God would say, “The suffering that you, my child, have endured during your life here on earth has been immense, but I was always there with you. And know that your suffering brings you nearer to the earthly life of my Son. All things that you do here matter. My son gave many parable to this effect, to say nothing of the law and the prophets. There will be no equality in heaven. That would be unjust. Those who have been last here on earth will be first there in my kingdom. Those who have stored up for themselves treasures in heaven, will reap those rewards. You, my poor child, are so confused and selfish and angry that you cannot have not been able to see these things clearly, though you have had your suspicions. But you, like all my other beloved creatures were made for bliss. The promise I gave to the prophets and apostles is that I would make all things new. I would take away all suffering and all death. Deep inside of you, you know that you are made for beatitude. You are not made for suffering. Although you are not yet ready to enter into my kingdom, all of my creatures–all the angels and saints–will be praying and working for your good, even though you will be in a place of punishment for the horribly selfish things you did, especially to those most vulnerable who needed your help and love. I made you, and you were not a mistake that I will cast away forever. I will never stop loving you.”
Because it is not symmetric. One is saved through grace, but must cooperate with it. One is lost through rejection of grace, not because God wished it.
No, it gives them a taste for what prison life means. Important distinction.
This question is even more clear than the question about God’s choice: No. Unjust punishment is unjust punishment. From the catechism:
Actually, He asked God to forgive them, based on the fact that it wasn’t a mortal sin (i.e., “they do not know what they do”).
Going to prison “to get a taste of it” isn’t imposition of punishment? C’mon, now – you’re making your position even more ludicrous if you’re gonna try to assert that!
Claiming that the Spirit is working in a fictional character, or in the work of fiction of an author, seems more like an unsafe claim.
It has everything to do with it. We’re talking about allowing a person to die in their sin. That’s precisely the point here – and the father in the prodigal son parable would have allowed it.
I recognize that many do. And, I’m not discounting the mercy of God. I’m just not making up stories that go beyond the teaching of the Church.
That’s probably a good thing, since I would feel compelled to rebut them again.
Ding ding ding! Give that man a kewpie doll!
Granting me the “gift” of allowing me the “freedom” to end in a state of suffering and torment indefinitely into the future is hardly any gift at all. As I said earlier, with a god like that, who needs enemies?
Did you happen to notice the title for this thread? A “forever” Hell is precisely what is being discussed. Severity and duration could not be any more relevant in matters of justice.
Unlike you perhaps, I freely accept that God’s grace extends to all and is quite unmerited. So, his grace and mercy go beyond justice. Actually, this is true for any and all gracious and merciful acts. Any act of mercy, though taking into account that a wrong was done, goes beyond an “eye for an eye” justice. So, the answer in terms of heaven is that it’s both/and. All humans are made for beatitude–it’s in their very natures, as divine image-bearers. And yet, our obtaining heaven requires God’s grace, mercy and love. Although we are made for it, we cannot earn it. It was Christ, not us, that bridged the gap, right?
It wasn’t a jab. It’s merely to state that I’ve read the relevant portions of the ST on this matter when I got really interested in it a couple of years ago. If you want to bring up some argument of his specifically, feel free.
Since there is no equality in heaven, as Christ made plain on several occasions, there is all the reason in the world to believe that we will “reap what we sow.” The first will be last, and the last first.
Wow, I have to confess (ba-dum-chee) that that is odd. I’ve pretty much only encountered mercy and kindness in the confessional. I’m here in America–not sure where you are, and not sure whether that would have any impact. Really sorry to hear about this experience! I thought the message of confession was, basically, although the requirements of the church are high, the requirements of penance are merciful. That is, they do not equal the severity of the sin. Anyway, sorry to hear that @oliver109
After baptism, each mortal sin is a rejection, but the time allotted for repentance is the entire lifetime. That is why final impenitence is about the last moment not earlier.
Your friends are not biology, nor is the influence of your parents, your professors, your bosses, Catholic Answers, your socio-economic status, the principalities and powers that war against you, the political parties in your country, and the Romans 7 conflict within you yourself–not biological. And yet, all of these things influence you enormously throughout the course of your life. This is undeniable. I understand your reductive tendency here (to reduce all the influences I’ve pointed out to the realm of biology). But, in all the instances of biology and non-biology, we are still pointing out influences on you. You want to defend this existentialist idea of “absolute freedom,” the tabula rasa kind. I understand what you’re doing. But, you’re simply downplaying the roles that all of the above play on your judgment and your knowledge. You’re probably also downplaying the influence of the Fall on your ability to apprehend truth too. Whatever freedom you have is limited and conditioned by all of the above and much else besides, the majority of which is non-biological. However, even in the case of biology, we are still seeing examples of ways in which God imposed these things on you and in no way consulted your freedom of choice. Your freedom was entirely irrelevant to all of these things.
If that is all you gathered from my paragraph, then this may be a good place to wrap up our discussion. Peace be with you Gorgias.