Yes, in hell, but why forever

[Magnanimity]

I need an “unheart” button for this.

 

[Gorgias]

Granting me the “gift” of allowing me the “freedom” to end in a state of suffering and torment indefinitely into the future is hardly any gift at all.

It’s better than the “gift” of slavery.

Severity and duration could not be any more relevant in matters of justice.

“Duration” is a measure of the temporal universe, not the eschaton.

I freely accept that God’s grace extends to all and is quite unmerited.

So do I. Sadly, I think that perhaps you don’t recognize the distinction between God’s grace and our acceptance and cooperation with it.

If you want to bring up some argument of his specifically, feel free.

Have you read the citation from the compendium I linked? If so – and if you recognize that he argues against your position – how about if you identify why you think Aquinas was mistaken?

there is all the reason in the world to believe that we will “reap what we sow.”

Unless we sow sin… in which case, you assert, that God doesn’t allow you to reap what you’ve sown.

And you would not even bother to try to defend such a problematic teaching unless you were already committed ( a priori ) to the teaching of an unending Hell being the “revealed truth” of God, just as Aquinas was.

And… there we have it. You know better than Aquinas. Yeah… got it.

And yet, all of these things influence you enormously throughout the course of your life.

And yet, none of these demonstrate that this ‘influence’ doesn’t rise to the level of preventing a free will choice. Nice straw man. That dog just don’t hunt, though…

Whatever freedom you have is limited and conditioned

Unless you want to demonstrate that ‘limited’ and ‘conditioned’ implies “prevents a free will decision”, your argument is still a straw man.

 

[OneSheep]

we have no certainty about salvation.

We can have absolute certainty that God loves/forgives us without condition. This can be known through relationship. In effect, everyone who knows this through relationship has learned this through revelation.

“Paul does not say to the Athenians: ‘This is the encyclopedia of truth. Study this and you have the truth, the truth.’ No! The truth does not enter into an encyclopedia,”

“The truth is an encounter - it is a meeting with Supreme Truth: Jesus, the great truth. No one owns the truth. We receive the truth when we meet it.” - Pope Francis

If we have no certainty of our salvation then how can us maybe going to Hell be a freewill choice? after all we are not certain we are going to Hell yet choose it anyway? Also could someone be more certain of going to Hell than going to Heaven?

Does the Father you know through life experience love and forgive without condition?

 

[Vico]

…
We can have absolute certainty that God loves/forgives us without condition. This can be known through relationship. In effect, everyone who knows this through relationship has learned this through revelation.
…

Yet not all are saved, for example, when there is un-repentence.

Dominum et vivificantem of St. Pope John Paul II, 46:

Why is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit unforgivable? How should this blasphemy be understood ? St. Thomas Aquinas replies that it is a question of a sin that is “unforgivable by its very nature, insofar as it excludes the elements through which the forgiveness of sin takes place.” 183

According to such an exegesis, “blasphemy” does not properly consist in offending against the Holy Spirit in words; it consists rather in the refusal to accept the salvation which God offers to man through the Holy Spirit, working through the power of the Cross. If man rejects the “convincing concerning sin” which comes from the Holy Spirit and which has the power to save, he also rejects the “coming” of the Counselor-that “coming” which was accomplished in the Paschal Mystery, in union with the redemptive power of Christ’s Blood: the Blood which “purifies the conscience from dead works.”

We know that the result of such a purification is the forgiveness of sins. Therefore, whoever rejects the Spirit and the Blood remains in “dead works,” in sin. And the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit consists precisely in the radical refusal to accept this forgiveness, of which he is the intimate giver and which presupposes the genuine conversion which he brings about in the conscience. If Jesus says that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit cannot be forgiven either in this life or in the next, it is because this “non-forgiveness” is linked, as to its cause, to “non-repentance,” in other words to the radical refusal to be converted.

http://w2.vatican.va/content/john-p...-ii_enc_18051986_dominum-et-vivificantem.html

 

[OneSheep]

No, it gives them a taste for what prison life means. Important distinction

I don’t see the distinction. Please clarify. If a person gets a taste of hell, how is that different than a taste of life in prison, other than we are to believe, of course, that hell is worse?

This question is even more clear than the question about God’s choice: No. Unjust punishment is unjust punishment

You are not addressing the question I asked. I apologize for any miscommunication. I’ll try again.

Your adult child has already chosen to go to hell. This is where he wants to be. Assuming that you do not want him to make this choice, you have tried everything within your power to convince him otherwise. You have the opportunity to simply let him go there, but then give him the chance to return, or you could just let him go there forever, with no chance of return.

Would you take the opportunity to give him a chance to return?

Actually, He asked God to forgive them, based on the fact that it wasn’t a mortal sin (i.e., “they do not know what they do”).

Yes, people do not know what they are doing when they sin. That is my point. This makes mortal sin impossible.

We’re talking about allowing a person to die in their sin. That’s precisely the point here – and the father in the prodigal son parable would have allowed it.

The prodigal son’s father did not have power over death, so his “allowing” is irrelevant. Of course any loving parent does not want their child to die.

I’m just not making up stories that go beyond the teaching of the Church.

If you are implying that I am, please bring them forth.

 

[OneSheep]

And the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit consists precisely in the radical refusal to accept this forgiveness

Yes, it is the choice towards hell, which appears to go against human nature. When the human is in full awareness, he or she does not make such a choice. Only those suffering blindness and/or lack of awareness make such a choice.

 

[Gorgias]

I don’t see the distinction. Please clarify.

Can you give me a “taste of life imprisonment”? No, of course you cannot. You can give me a “taste of imprisonment”, but the despair of life imprisonment is something you cannot give a “taste” of. It’s the permanence of the life imprisonment that is the punishment.

Your adult child has already chosen to go to hell. This is where he wants to be .

The thing is, he gets the rest of his life to change his mind and repent. Now, keep in mind what the reason is that you’re offering this example in the first place: you want to draw a parallel to the case of a person who has no “rest of his life”, and whom you wish to posit will be given a “last chance in the presence of Jesus to repent.”

This means that your analogy fails to capture the situation in profound ways. So, yet again, no… I will not wish my child a punishment that he has not yet earned. That would be unjust and immoral.

You have the opportunity to simply let him go there, but then give him the chance to return

No, you do not. There is no return from hell. It’s part of the definition of the thing…

Yes, people do not know what they are doing when they sin. That is my point. This makes mortal sin impossible.

I hate to have to state it so baldly, but: no, you’re mistaken – the Church does not state that 'mortal sin is impossible’ . If you wish to start your own church, with its own belief system, have at it. You do not have the right or the authority to impose your belief system on the Church.

If you are implying that I am, please bring them forth.

Seriously? This entire thread is filled with them.

 

[oliver109]

Mortal sin is easy to commit, the problem Is that some Catholics seem to be baffled that it is so. I went to Confession and told the priest that I had committed 3 mortal sins since my last confession 4 days ago, he told me that he could not see how I could commit so many mortal sins when his other parishioners managed to go without committing the same sins again.

 

[OneSheep]

Can you give me a “taste of life imprisonment”? No, of course you cannot. You can give me a “taste of imprisonment”, but the despair of life imprisonment is something you cannot give a “taste” of. It’s the permanence of the life imprisonment that is the punishment.

If the individual was told that the trip would be permanent, perhaps there would be some time to develop enough hopelessness.

The thing is, he gets the rest of his life to change his mind and repent.

No, let’s assume he’s already dead. We’re talking hypotheticals.

No, you do not. There is no return from hell. It’s part of the definition of the thing…

Again, we are talking about hypotheticals. With God, all things are possible. Merciful things

Please, try to answer the question, I do appreciate that there needs to be more parameters though, so feel free to continue challenging the question. Here it is again, with modificatons:

Your adult child has already died and chosen to go to hell. This is where he wants to be . Assuming that you do not want him to make this choice, you have tried everything within your power to convince him otherwise. You have the opportunity to simply let him go there, but then give him the chance to return, or you could just let him go there forever, with no chance of return.

Would you take the opportunity to give him a chance to return?

the Church does not state that 'mortal sin is impossible

Correct. I said “this (that point) makes mortal sin impossible”. But since I am not omniscient, I can’t say that the impossible cannot occur anyway, for some unknown reason.

This entire thread is filled with them.

Again, show proof of your statement. I’m not telling stories, I am making observations.

 

[Vico]

Vico:

And the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit consists precisely in the radical refusal to accept this forgiveness

Yes, it is the choice towards hell, which appears to go against human nature. When the human is in full awareness, he or she does not make such a choice. Only those suffering blindness and/or lack of awareness make such a choice.

[Revised]

Do you mean advertence? By definition, the actual mortal sin means that the person had sufficient knowledge of the moral character of the grave sin and it was not due to invincible ignorance. So with final impenitence that state has persisted without repentance.

 

[SteelArchangel]

Even then. I still can’t imagine him being turned down.

 

[claudine]

In some ways its really pretty difficult to commit mortal sin. The three conditions are to know for certain that it is mortal sin. To have the time to reflect and then to intentionally commit it.
Then in order to get to hell one would have to never regret it, be sorry, or to turn back to The All Merciful All Loving One.

In my mind such a person would be insane, yet another out for the sinner to probably be given Divine Mercy.

Doesn’t everybody get a second chance at the end of time or something orether as well?
I hope so.
Also, aren’t the pains of death about enough to wear off all penance ?

 

[OneSheep]

Do you mean advertence?

It appears that “advertence” has to do with attentiveness. Attentiveness is part of awareness, yes, but awareness has to do with “seeing the light”, knowing what one is doing, and/or seeing with perfect sight. Awareness develops through prayer, experience, and learning from others. it is wisdom, but it is more, not just a “head thing”. It involves both the head and the heart.

There is a book, Awareness by Fr. Anthony de Mello. I highly recommend it.

By definition, the actual mortal sin means that the person had sufficient knowledge of the moral character of the grave sin

One can see that when people fully appreciate the moral character of the sin, that is, they are not blind or lacking in awareness, they will choose not to sin. Understanding moral character in itself must take into consideration the purpose of morality, which is the promotion of mercy and merciful behavior. Morality is not an end it itself, it has the purpose of upholding charity and love, guiding us toward the goals of mercy and love.

So with final impenitence

It is a matter of human dignity. We can observe that when people are not penitent, they do not know what they are doing. Human dignity can be verified in the innocent behavior of people. When we do what is hurtful, we know not what we do. Truly, to say that a person would knowingly (without blindness or lack of awareness) choose impenitence is an affront to the reality of human dignity. People are beautiful, Vico. All people, in their hearts, seek God.

When we shine the light onto the hurtfulness, when we make known the value of the person(s) being hurt, the sin is not chosen. For example, though, we may do everything we can to show a person the value of the unborn, the tiny feet, the beating heart, and that will most likely lead to avoidance of abortion. However, the person may not listen because it brings up past pain, or they do not trust the person providing light on the subject of the unborn’s value. Both of these cases involve a person who has been inadvertently blinded.

 

[oliver109]

I think that there are such people that would choose impenitence, it breaks my heart to say this but there are some people who at least appear to be completely wicked. Now thankfully one can be pretty much certain that the great majority of humanity do seek the good, do seek a world where we are all happy but there are some people who relish in the suffering of others, do you think they could be saved?

 

[claudine]

I think commiting mortal sin is pretty hard to do.

In general I think usually sin is done because of a mistake in logic or science. Inother words, the result of an action is mistakenly thought to be a ‘good’ or was not realized to be mortal sin in fact.

Intentionally doing evil for its own sake is probably mentally unbalanced. So it can’t be mortal sin, or the kind that is rewarded by hell.

Even in a sort of wierd mental space, lets call it, someone strangely decides to do mortal sin solely for evil’s sake, ok. It’s still likely, given time, and that could be oh, maybe evn 80 to 85 years in some cases now days. There will be some regret, even because of probably some bad consequences for the evil done which generates the person to come around to see that evil isn’t worth it and be sorry. I believe that is highly probable in most cases.

 

[sudy]

I think commiting mortal sin is pretty hard to do

It is pretty hard to do when you are vigilant and choose to do God’s will and not your own. I don’t believe it’s as hard to do as you imagine, though.

 

[claudine]

well, speak for yoirself, then sudy.

Bless you in all you do today, may we both be un union with The Will of the Creator of All.

 

[sudy]

well, speak for yoirself, then sudy

I was. And bless you, too.

 

[rightness]

People who are in hell have chosen in their life to completely abandon the mercy of God without repenting. In Spe Salvi by Pope Benedict XVI, a person made their decision on their death. In my opinion, even Hitler could be saved if, at the split second of the trigger being pulled to his head, he repents.

God’s Divine Mercy is great, and our Father seeks to bring us to Him as much as He can, but it can only go so far. If anyone, after death, has a chance, then the Father will make it happen. Those who are in hell have truly chosen to be there.

With the visions from the Fatima children and Saint Faustina, it seems like many have chosen the way of Satan. Faustina’s journal on hell are particularly scary.

 

[claudine]

But the thing is people are always saying things when inside they ar thinking, even believing something else. As in “oh darn, wish I hadn’t said that”, or more commanly: " well, now that I say that outloud it sounds like utter bunk actually!". They may not say so, but inside they are rflecting on that and it probably developes into regret and repentence over time.

Its still hard for me to think there is as much mortal sin as some people like to imagine.

In any case, observing someone over a long time is better than just listening to what they write or say in a moment.

I have personally known people who have commited mortal sin and from all outward appearance have no sorrow or even admitance they did those wrongs. So for sure it isn’t impossible, just rare.