Yes, in hell, but why forever

  • Thread starter Thread starter MaximilianK
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
You have the opportunity to simply let him go there, but then give him the chance to return, or you could just let him go there forever, with no chance of return.

Would you take the opportunity to give him a chance to return?
I’m not “avoiding the question”, since there’s no possible answer in the question. Following death, there’s no “give him the chance to return”. Your hypothetical situation is no question at all. Please try to focus on Catholic doctrine. 😉
Yes, though this is after sins upon sins. It’s sin that destroys the conscience. With the exception of those who haven’t got the mental ability.
This is the point that some here in this thread are missing. The “inability”, inasmuch as it can be said to exist, comes from previous sins. The culpability proceeds from the initial choices that preceded and in fact led to the ‘diminished’ state.

From the Catechism:
1790 A human being must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience. If he were deliberately to act against it, he would condemn himself. Yet it can happen that moral conscience remains in ignorance and makes erroneous judgments about acts to be performed or already committed.

1791 This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man “takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin.” In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.
 
Last edited:
What I don’t understand is how God can suddenly say “that’s it, you have no more chances to ask for forgiveness, now die in your sins” im sorry but it don’t make any sense.
 
What I don’t understand is how God can suddenly say “that’s it, you have no more chances to ask for forgiveness, now die in your sins” im sorry but it don’t make any sense.
God knows all.
This would include knowing when we have decided.
 
It still seems a bit random to me, like apparently someone in 15th century France would have decided by the age of 50 as that was the typical life expectancy, now it would be more like 90.
 
What I don’t understand is why does God not keep someone alive until they choose Heaven? if this means having to live forever in their current sinful state then so be it, I cannot think of anything worse than Hell, the way it has been described it must be really boring, I had to wait 2 hours for a train on a station, no phone, no one to talk to, nothing, just me waiting for a train, it was tedious, imagine waiting forever in Hell for nothing!
 
It is not overriding free will, what I am suggesting is that God does not let someone die in their sins, hardly overriding free will, now whether they end up choosing Heaven is another matter but I do not see the point in disposing someone to Hell unless they despair of Gods mercy like Judas.
 
It is not overriding free will,
Absolutely it is.
You want God to keep people alive until they choose God. That makes any other choice impossible.
Your exact words were: “keep someone alive until they choose Heaven”

Your own words confirm that you remove hell as an option.
 
They could be kept alive but they would not be forced to choose Heaven, they could instead have God and the saints encouraging them to choose Heaven but they would still have to make that choice. Hell is not something most people would choose unless they had the misfortune to die in mortal sin anyway.
 
there’s no possible answer in the question.
There are at least two possible answers: 1. Yes 2. No.
Your hypothetical situation is no question at all.
Call it what you want, but it is still a question, and you don’t want to answer it. I’ll leave it at that.

I encourage you to reflect on the question someday; it might shine the light on some part of yourself that you don’t want to address, but it would be very worthwhile to do so.

Blessings to you, Gorgias.
 
Last edited:
I observe that it happens often, and happens very quickly. People are not aware that they have become blind to their own conscience. It happens because of resentment or desire.

Here is an example: A person is in a state of desire and commits a sin, he does an act that he would ordinarily find unconscionable. Later on, when the mind is cleared of the desire, the person regrets what they have done. So, we go to the question: why did the person choose against his conscience?
He sins because we are inclined to sin. He is weak and gives in to desire and doesn’t rely on God to help him. He regrets because he recognises his error as his conscience pricks at him, and God gives him the grace to return. If he were to look for the way of escape that God always gives us to avoid sin whenever we are tempted, he would actually be able to resist and this gets easier with practice. Not all people do regret sins, though… resentment is an example of this.

The reason he chose against his conscience was because his desire was strong and his selfishness kicked in. He put this desire, this love of self, before God and before his knowledge of right and wrong, and ignored the way of escape. I’ve observed it in my own behaviour, too, that when I have mortally sinned I tend to commit several… it’s like a downward spiral. Sin begets sin.
The judge and jury don’t “love” the accused…so not a great choice of comparison.
Eternal life is a gift and not a right. If we have not love we are nothing. The thing is, God is truth. What he has revealed to us cannot be unsaid… to suggest otherwise and we make God a liar. Although Christ freely offers us his love and forgiveness, he also tells us that there are certain conditions for salvation. We have to let his love into our hearts to change us. His love and forgiveness are truly incredible… even if we have committed the most gruesome and cruelest of crimes against God and humanity… as long as we have true repentance, a conversion of heart, we can receive his forgiveness… and that’s even if that repentance comes in the final moments of life after a life full of sin.

[This conversation actually kind of reminds me of something I heard a priest talking about one time… false or misguided compassion, where these days we have a tendency to set up the guilty party as an innocent victim.]

God is already, each and every moment of our lives, offering us his love, forgiveness, salvation. We must choose to accept him. Faith and love and being born again are of the conditions of salvation.

Christ says, ‘I never knew you’… that’s a harsh reality. What does this imply, though? It means they had no relationship with God. They chose against God. This is how free we actually are, we can say no. We just can’t ‘borrow’ a relationship with God from the wise virgins.

We should pray for everyone, of course. We have no way of knowing who will turn to God at the end of their lives. God hears our prayers outside of time, so all prayer is beneficial.
 
Eternal life is a gift and not a right. If we have not love we are nothing. The thing is, God is truth. What he has revealed to us cannot be unsaid… to suggest otherwise and we make God a liar. Although Christ freely offers us his love and forgiveness, he also tells us that there are certain conditions for salvation. We have to let his love into our hearts to change us. His love and forgiveness are truly incredible… even if we have committed the most gruesome and cruelest of crimes against God and humanity… as long as we have true repentance, a conversion of heart, we can receive his forgiveness… and that’s even if that repentance comes in the final moments of life after a life full of sin.

[This conversation actually kind of reminds me of something I heard a priest talking about one time… false or misguided compassion, where these days we have a tendency to set up the guilty party as an innocent victim.]

God is already, each and every moment of our lives, offering us his love, forgiveness, salvation. We must choose to accept him. Faith and love and being born again are of the conditions of salvation.

Christ says, ‘I never knew you’… that’s a harsh reality. What does this imply, though? It means they had no relationship with God. They chose against God. This is how free we actually are, we can say no. We just can’t ‘borrow’ a relationship with God from the wise virgins.

We should pray for everyone, of course. We have no way of knowing who will turn to God at the end of their lives. God hears our prayers outside of time, so all prayer is beneficial.
Repeating the same jibber jabber over and over doesn’t make it any more logical. A humble earthly father, who in theory cannot love as much as God, would not even close the book on his son, so it is nonsensical to suggest Love itself to do so.

To suggest so does not make God a liar, it makes the humans who claim to have his word, liars. Any thinking person would do themselves a disservice not to question these claims.
 
A natural earthly father’s son can choose to leave him. The father may pursue him to change this, but the son can persevere. The father can make attempts days, months and years later and the son can still refuse. The father eventually accepts the son’s decision. God has revealed truths to us. There are conditions to salvation. This isn’t human thinking, this is God’s word. Our belief in God’s word is what makes us Christian. We are but a breath… a fleeting moment. Real life requires us to be born again.
 
There are at least two possible answers: 1. Yes 2. No.
  1. No answer is possible, since no choice can be made after death (and the particular judgment).
Call it what you want, but it is still a question, and you don’t want to answer it. I’ll leave it at that.
It admits of no answer. I can’t answer “yes, I want to change the judgment”, since that’s impossible; I can’t answer “no, I don’t want to change the judgment”, since there’s no changing the judgment. You can “leave it” wherever you wish – but the question is unanswerable.
I encourage you to reflect on the question someday; it might shine the light on some part of yourself that you don’t want to address, but it would be very worthwhile to do so.
Wow. Self-aggrandize much, eh?
 
“keep someone alive until they choose Heaven”

You have removed all other possible choices.
You want God to override our free will and force himself upon us.
 
A natural earthly father’s son can choose to leave him. The father may pursue him to change this, but the son can persevere. The father can make attempts days, months and years later and the son can still refuse. The father eventually accepts the son’s decision.
I disagree. All fathers I know would leave the return of their son open until the day they die. They would not ‘accept’ the son’s decision as final. The son can persevere, but that doesn’t mean they weren’t given the chance.
 
until the day they die
They are given chances until death. We have God’s word written on our hearts… we have a conscience.

Presumption of salvation is against hope. We hope for salvation, and we trust in our salvation when we do God’s will. Even St Paul hoped in his salvation, and only felt sure he would attain it when his end was very close.
 
Last edited:
“keep someone alive until they choose Heaven”

You have removed all other possible choices.
You want God to override our free will and force himself upon us.
And that is worse than keeping them “alive” to suffer for eternity?

He has already violated our free will from the very beginning… None of us chose to be born. With that fundamental breech, it is safe to say free will does not exist in the absolute sense in the first place.
 
And that is worse than keeping them “alive” to suffer for eternity?
We know that Hell is eternal. We don’t fully understand what hell is, except the understanding that it is separation from God. Hell is described as a second death, and outer darkness… as well as a lake of fire.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top