I knew you would say that. But that is why my example is different. In my example, the father and the son will die, therefore it really is over at death. In your example, God is eternal, and the human’s soul is eternal. Therefore, no reason for the decision to be based on the blink-of-an eye earth life.
It has the virtue of respecting our freedom to choose.
Keep in mind that that ‘suffering’ is knowledge of eternal separation from God… which is what they chose by their actions. It’s not an imposed condition; it’s a freely chosen one. There’s no injustice there.
I could have chosen not to be born, so, my will was not allowed.
I could accept that under the annihilation scenario, not under an eternal suffering one.
Before you’re born, you have no ‘will’, so … no, that’s not true.
I will to be annihilated. My will is not being done.Before you’re born, you have no ‘will’, so … no , that’s not true.
Once you have a will – that is, once you’re alive and able to freely use your intellect – you have free use of your will.
There’s a difference between “will” and “act.” You can will it all you like… but, just like jumping off a cliff and flying away, there’s a difference between “free will” and “free act.”
I disagree, eternal life is unjust.
And no, I certainly haven’t. Anyone who is kept alive against their will is being treated unjustly.
You certainly have. You have a free will, not an omnipotence do do whatever you wish.
Here’s the counter-example that disproves your assertion:
I can’t think of a more terrifying future. Everything new will eventually have been exhausted, leaving conscience nothingness.
That’s quite a leap, from one individual decision to…omnipotence!
A true eye-for-an-eye scenario would allow for the murderer to be murdered in the same manner as their victim. Would this be the just thing to do? I suppose it depends. In reality, I figure if they murderer was able to take his victim out, he probably wouldn’t need to rely on someone else to take himself out, so I don’t know if your real world example would ever really play out. I have no problem with him wanting to end his life. I couldn’t judge why he committed the murders in the first place without knowing his situation.Suppose I murder someone, and am justly convicted of life in prison. However, seeing that I’m never going to get out, I desire to die immediately. Is it unjust to keep me alive against my will, given that it’s just that I experience the consequences of my action?
Clearly, the answer is “no”. See how easy it is, when you think about it a little?
Not at all… I can only work with what you say.
Except that’s not what I said. It is a complete misrepresentation of what I said. I do not believe I said anything about loving God. You do you love something you can’t interact with?
We are inclined to do what we think is best in the moment. I cannot argue this, it has to be verified by the individual. One has to examine his past actions, and rather than condemn, seek to understand. We are inclined toward satisfaction, fulfillment, but desire blinds us.
Yes, it can be seen as a human “weakness” that we become blinded to the significance of our own consciences. However, this blindness in itself has a purpose in our nature, and is beautiful in function. We can look back and say “I should have… I shouldn’t have…” but like the crowd who hung Jesus, when we are caught up in desire these moral precepts lose their weight. Later, when we are regretting, the precepts regain their significance. At the later state, we are in a position of “full knowledge and full consent”, not when we are caught up in desire.
The “practice” is in contemplative prayer. It means being in connection with God at the moment, which is rare and involves a lot of discipline. Most people walk around fairly unconscious.
We are using “resentment” differently, I think. I am using it as “holding something against someone”.
All desires are essentially for the benefit of the self. God wants us to take care of ourselves.
This is the accusation, but this “putting before” is not deliberate in terms of intent (with some rare exceptions also involving blindness). Again, you would have to verify this in yourself. Think of a past sin, did you intend to downplay God, or did you want to stay with God, and do the sin too? I am sure you had this going on in a mind distorted by desire.
When we discipline ourselves to sin, we repress the desires and ideas that lead to sin. “What is repressed gets expressed” as the saying goes. The repressed desires will come to overwhelm us in certain circumstances. The way to deal with this is a life of prayer that leads to awareness in the moment, being able to step back from desire when it arises and just watch it, rather than push it down and condemn it.
I wasn’t talking about a judgment. I was talking about an individual’s choice.
My apologies if that sounded self-aggrandizing. Gorgias, I am telling you that there are ways to develop your relationship with God. If you are seeing God as judgmental, that image is very normal and natural, but there is a Father that can be found deeper within who loves and forgives unconditionally. He forgives “before always”, before He even created us. The conscience resists this image, of course, because we want to hang onto blame of our selves and others, the blame helps a bit in avoidance of sin.
I don’t understand this. We can and do interact with God. This is primarily through prayer and charitable works, but also in answered prayers.
I disagree… we don’t necessarily think it is best in the moment. I’m not condemning, I’m speaking from personal experience. When I have chosen to sin, it’s not because I think it is best, anyway. I’ve knowingly chosen sin through desire and ignoring my conscience.
You said yourself in your example that they regret what they’ve done. Yet they’ve apparently made no attempt to alter their future behaviour. God gives us a way of escape. If they truly regret, they will try self mastery. This eventually leads to finding the way out. I’m again speaking from personal experience.
The practice is in actively wanting to avoid sinning for love of God, and seeking the way of escape, besides prayer and the sacraments to strengthen us.
I was also meaning it as holding a grudge. Agreed that it’s a poorly developed conscience.
Yet God also tells us that everyone who loves the Father does his will… and that we are to be born again to overcome the slavery of sin.