Yes, in hell, but why forever

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OneSheep said:
This is the accusation, but this “putting before” is not deliberate in terms of intent (with some rare exceptions also involving blindness). Again, you would have to verify this in yourself. Think of a past sin, did you intend to downplay God, or did you want to stay with God, and do the sin too? I am sure you had this going on in a mind distorted by desire.
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In the rare cases of true ignorance, and therefore blindness, they’ll be judged according to what they have… as God says those who have law will be judged under the law, and those without will be judged according to what they have. The problem with this idea of downplaying God intentionally is that God tells us that we cannot love God and continue to sin. If we love God we must renounce sin… change our ways. When I have sinned, there are different times… when I have been under habitual sin I have not wanted to renounce God… and sought confession as soon as possible. When I have sinned at other times, I’ve put God into the back of my mind, so in that sense I have downplayed God with intent. I can only speak of my own personal sins, however. God reads the heart and mind and judges as he sees fit.
OneSheep said:
When we discipline ourselves to sin, we repress the desires and ideas that lead to sin. “What is repressed gets expressed” as the saying goes. The repressed desires will come to overwhelm us in certain circumstances. The way to deal with this is a life of prayer that leads to awareness in the moment, being able to step back from desire when it arises and just watch it, rather than push it down and condemn it.

We can reconcile with our God-given appetites.
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I don’t think it’s repressing desire anymore… rather it’s a change of heart. Just relying on prayer and not making any efforts besides is missing the point, in a sense. We need to make a decision not to sin. It’s not a case of ‘wanting or thinking we’d like to stop sinning’ but ‘etermined to stop sinning.’

Our God given appetites are being misused when it comes to sin.

I’m afraid I’m out of time again today. So, until tomorrow …
 
sudy said:
I don’t understand this. We can and do interact with God. This is primarily through prayer and charitable works, but also in answered prayers.
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Interaction requires a response. So far, just silence and inaction.
 
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Vico said:
Mortal sin is committed without knowing all there is to know about the seriousness of a particular act, and therefore, to use your definition not knowing what they are doing.
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Short of knowing all there is to know, it is not “full knowledge”, Vico. It is “partial knowledge”.
Vico said:
We know, for example that Adam and Eve committed mortal sin, for they lost sanctifying grace because of it, and that is the only way that happens.
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Genesis 3 is not intended to present an image of God who condemns; that might be taking the allegory too far. Jesus presents an image of God that transcends what is presented in the old testament. Jesus shows us that God the Father forgives, does not condemn. God understands that because of our nature (lack of awareness and capacity for blindness) we will sometimes choose against Him. Parents see such defiance very often, and learn that children, even adult children, lack awareness and are capable of blindness. We parents understand and forgive our children, right?
Vico said:
Blindness that leads to sinful acts can be the result of prior sins therefore the doer is culpable for them. Mortal sin both has and continues to result from certain malice.
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Again, if “culpable” means “imputable” then it doesn’t matter whether the person is blind or not. Our choices are imputable to us no matter what. And again, if “culpable” means “to be blamed” then then the answer is that God does not blame, God forgives.

Please, Vico, if you want to address the above point I made please quote it and address it directly. You keep saying “malice”, which triggers blame in the reader and projects that God also blames. If you want to say that God blames, then say it, and we can take it from there.
 
vz71 said:
Given that you were not there before you were born, and therefore had no will, there was nothing to violate.
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Surely an omniscient being would know my will prior to me? No need for a time restriction.
 
laylow said:
Surely an omniscient being would know my will prior to me? No need for a time restriction.
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But only you can exercise your free will.
It does not matter if someone else knows your will or not.

Without you, you cannot exercise free will.
 
vz71 said:
But only you can exercise your free will.
It does not matter if someone else knows your will or not.

Without you, you cannot exercise free will.
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And I’ve exercised it…but it has been ignored. (theoretically)
 
vz71 said:
No. You cannot exercise that which you do not have.
Prior to existing, you do not have a will.
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I can exercise it now and God can make it be…because he can do anything. He could change the course so no one knew I was even born. Unless of course, he is limited from doing what he wants.
 
Oliver, maybe He does. Maybe everyone is in their heart of hearts sorry for all their wrongs at the moment of death. This is my hope and prayer for all souls.
 
laylow said:
I can’t think of a more terrifying future.
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It’s not a “future”; it’s an eternal “present”.
Everything new will eventually have been exhausted
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“[God] said, ‘See, I make all things new’.” – Revelation 21:5
, leaving conscience nothingness.
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That makes no sense. Do you mean “conciousness”? (Even so, that doesn’t help much, but at least it would be an attempt to mean something cogent… 🤔
 
OneSheep said:
If you are seeing God as judgmental, that image is very normal and natural, but there is a Father that can be found deeper within who loves and forgives unconditionally.
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I agree. That forgiveness is initiated by our contrition. Without it, there can be no forgiveness. What you’ve been espousing is forgiveness without contrition.
OneSheep said:
With development of empathy and love, being in touch with the Father who always loves and forgives, a person can avoid sin without hanging onto blame.
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I agree. Remember, though, that it’s ya’ll who have been claiming that sin is impossible. Not avoidable, mind you, but prima facie ‘impossible’.
 
Gorgias said:
t’s not a “future”; it’s an eternal “present”.
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Purely theoretical. Nonsensical for my understanding.
Gorgias said:
“[God] said, ‘See, I make all things new’.” – Revelation 21:5
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So every day things are new again? Do we remember things in the past?
Gorgias said:
That makes no sense. Do you mean “conciousness”? (Even so, that doesn’t help much, but at least it would be an attempt to mean something cogent…
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Perhaps poorly worded, I admit. Essentially you are cognisant that every possibility has been exhausted, but must persist anyway, for all eternity.

I know no other way to think. I can only relate to the human experience, not a theoretical bliss-filled eternity. If you say it’s above my understanding, then of course I fully admit that, but would suggest it is above anyone’s understanding since finality is all our consciences are subjected to. Therefore I can only conclude my experience in reference to time. And with this, I conclude that after some odd billion years or so, I would get bored and wish for it to end.
 
vz71 said:
So God is now to blame for the actions of others?
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Simple concept, I will only explain it one more time:

The reason given why an all-good God would allow for evil is free will.

Yet the response you have given me as to why my free will is thwarted is because God is not my slave.

So, for God, free will is so important that he allows for murderers, but then in my case it is not important at all.
 
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