Yes, in hell, but why forever

[oliver109]

Adam and Eve mortally sinned but they got another chance, what I am arguing for is for God to give people endless chances if need be to ask for forgiveness, why would you make someone die when the time just aint right?

 

[vz71]

what I am arguing for is for God to give people endless chances

With only one choice available you remove free will.

 

[sudy]

Adam and Eve mortally sinned but they got another chance, what I am arguing for is for God to give people endless chances if need be to ask for forgiveness, why would you make someone die when the time just aint right?

Endless chances don’t really make any sense. What happens to respecting someone’s decision? Keep giving them a chance until they choose your way? That’s not really a choice at all.

 

[oliver109]

It is still a choice because they are able to reject you, they are not been forced to be good so to speak. Some posters are giving me the impression that one cannot serve God freely unless there is a constant reality of an eternal punishment.

 

[Fauken]

It is still a choice because they are able to reject you, they are not been forced to be good so to speak.

“Lord, I’ve been alive for five hundred years. I’ve watched everyone who I ever knew die. I’ve witnessed centuries of wars. I want to die.”

“Are you sorry yet?”

“No.”

“Then no.”

Yeah, that sounds like a choice.

Some posters are giving me the impression that one cannot serve God freely unless there is a constant reality of an eternal punishment.

That reality is reality. It is more important to focus on what is truly important (loving God) than what happens when one doesn’t (Hell). If one loves God, eternal punishment (which is more like living with one’s choice) pales in comparison to the ultimate reward: spending eternity with love Itself.

 

[Gorgias]

Adam and Eve mortally sinned but they got another chance

All of us sin. All of us get another chance. What we don’t get is the opportunity to change the judgment after it’s already been set.

why would you make someone die when the time just aint right?

The time is always right to be contrite and ask for forgiveness, while you’re alive.

What’s really boggling about this thread is that we’re looking at one moment of time – that is, the moment of death – and asking “why not allow repentance at this moment?”, while ignoring the countless moments throughout the person’s life and not asking “why didn’t you repent then?”

 

[oliver109]

Asking why one did not repent them is a bit like asking them why they committed a mortal sin in the first place, they just did! When I commit a mortal sin(and please God help me to avoid doing so!) I don’t expect to have to explain myself, I just hope to have forgiveness and move on. God allowing someone to die in that vulnerable moment after they have committed a mortal sin just seems harsh and cruel.

 

[vz71]

Asking why one did not repent them is a bit like asking them why they committed a mortal sin in the first place, they just did!

Mortal sin does not just sneak up on people.

You know well the grave nature of the sin.
You know well that you can choose otherwise, and are free to.
You do it anyway.

You speak as though you do not know what actually constitutes a mortal sin.

 

[oliver109]

You are quite right, it is no mistake, no accident, what I believe is that forgiveness should always be available after a mortal sin is committed. When God makes a sinner die immediately after committing a mortal sin it is like God is ensuring that the person has no chance to ask for forgiveness again.

 

[vz71]

It is called a mortal sin for a reason.

 

[oliver109]

I know but mortal sins can be forgiven, they can always be forgiven provided the sinner desires it.

 

[sudy]

Oliver… if I may. You seem to need a refresher course on what our purpose is as you’re a little stubborn about this dying in mortal sin thing.

In our baptism our sins were washed away and we were raised to life in the spirit.

2 Timothy 1:7

For God did not give us a spirit of cowardice but rather of power and love and self-control

Fear of hell and punishment can be a beginning in faith but we aren’t to stay in this mode. We now focus on the things of heaven… eyes on the prize. Yes, we still have an inclination to sin, but we are given the power to break with sin. It gets easier, trust me. With doing God’s will comes hope… we aren’t all panicking and thinking about hell and punishment all the time.

When we love God we are to keep his commandments. This love grows with charity towards neighbour. Breaking with sin really is doable… it’s not a feat of the impossible. We are given all the tools we need to achieve this, rather than being left to struggle alone. We must work with God, though, not keep fighting against him and his help. You seem to be under the impression that we’ll die in mortal sin by some unfortunate timing or God working against us. This is absolutely false. It’s we who are working against our salvation when we sin mortally. If we continue to sin then we are still a slave to sin, and sin leads to death. We must choose… doing God’s will or remaining in a life of sin/death.

If you choose to do God’s will and fight sin… the next step should be related to finding out how to do his will and overcome sin, not saying ‘Isn’t God unfair for forcing me to die in mortal sin without letting me repent first. Where’s my chance to repent after death?’

 

[Gorgias]

God allowing someone to die in that vulnerable moment after they have committed a mortal sin just seems harsh and cruel.

When God makes a sinner die immediately after committing a mortal sin

Again, you’re falling into the trap that God works like the Fates of Greek mythology, personally determining the length of a person’s life. He doesn’t.

If there’s no direct action, then there’s no intent. Therefore, there’s no emotional context of “cruelty” or “harshness”.

 

[oliver109]

I like this answer, it is very hopeful, now I believe that it is possible to live a life free of mortal sin, it just is not easy, temptations are felt by some more strongly than others and even St Paul admitted that living a sinless life is a challenge. I feel somewhat jealous of the martyrs who had a near certainty that their death would be a sinless one and a death that would surely lead to Heaven, I would love to have something like martyrdom offered to me now, on a plate so to speak. I just like the comfort that knowing God will always save me if by any chance I commit mortal sin, why can’t I have that?

 

[sudy]

I’ve unfortunately committed many mortal sins in my life, and of many different types. I’m going to tell you… as little as possible really, of the most troubling ones as they required different ways of dealing with them, one of these, I believe, relates to your issue. I should add that frequent prayer and the sacraments are obviously involved, too, as is love of neighbour.

Of my sins these were the most difficult to stop despite trying hard and confessing… all of them required the commitment to stop as well as a plan of action… I decided that I would do whatever needed to be done. I didn’t tackle these all at the same time btw, they were conquered one at a time.

The first one I’ll mention required looking for the way of escape, like the Corinthians verse speaks of. This was an addictive, habitual and long standing grave sin. I had to analyse my behaviour and look for any triggers, and act on the way of escape straight away and avoid letting the situation escalate. I never believed I’d be able to overcome this sin so I’m incredibly grateful to God for freeing me of it.

The next grave sin required completely abandoning myself to God to let him sort my problem out for me, as I just couldn’t find a satisfactory solution. I decided that I wouldn’t commit the sin and prepared to face the consequences… it had troubled me for over a year with much fretting and it actually stopped being a problem instantly once I stopped fighting God and let his will be done. I’m still amazed and grateful for this because the issue itself is still potentially underlying.

The other one required focusing on, and praying for, its direct opposite and behaving in that way, and it worked.

Anyway, that’s really all the detail I want to disclose. Hopefully you can get the idea, though.

It may be tough at first, and you may fail a few times, but I’m surprised to find that I can honestly say now that despite all my previous real struggles to overcome these sins, there’s been a change of heart. They no longer have the same hold over me. I still must be vigilant though… just in case.

Martyrdom is actually a possibility as we’ve no way of knowing what’s around the corner.

May The Lord help you in your journey as he has helped me.

 

[oliver109]

It is very encouraging to read your account as it shows a very personal journey moving away from a sinful life, may you always persevere. I do believe that prayer is key and that it does really work and I have started praying more to avoid mortal sins and to live a life that is just and wholesome. Where I differ from you is that I still think there is nothing wrong about hoping that God will always give a final chance, a final offer of forgiveness before the separation of the soul and body, this thought comforts me, it makes me less fearful of dying and it stops me panicking on one of those awful moments when a mortal sin is committed. now I am trying to stop mortal sin and I believe succeeding more but it is nice to believe that God wont let you die in mortal sin unless you ask to do so.

 

[OneSheep]

Good Morning Sudy,

I do see where you’re coming from with this. Yet we also have
Matthew 25:31-46

There is a wonderful book, Good Goats, Healing Your Image of God which in part addresses this verse. We all are both sheep and goats. The parable is about addressing aspects of our individual selves, not addressing individual people.

John 15:22

I’m really glad you brought this one forth. It directly contradicts “for they know not what they do” which was observed by both Jesus at the cross and Peter et.al. in Acts concerning Jewish leadership. What can be remembered is that Jesus grew in wisdom, and it could be that he came to see that there is much more to “seeing” than simple hearing.

Mark 16:16

The “condemnation” comes from sin itself, it is a natural consequence. We go the wrong path, we condemn ourselves to suffer the natural consequences.
Do you see the theme here? God always understands, always waits for us, always forgives us.

John 14:21-24

A little too loose, maybe? It does not say that sinners do not love Him, it also does not say that people who obey Him necessarily believe in Him. The wording is narrower, meant to motivate people to obey, not to condemn people.

There was an escape so I needed to find it.

Praise God that you overcame it!

it’s not as simple as that, at least for me… it isn’t that I didn’t know something, rather that I wanted to do the sins themselves and so ignored my conscience. I have a tendency to look for, and to find, loopholes and so I made excuses, too. On the other hand, now that I know I can control my behaviour, I have become vigilant and evaluate what’s going on to prevent myself from sinning. I do still sin but those are the venial kind… so far.

The blindness comes in the form of re-prioritizing the conscience. When we are looking for loopholes, this is in a state of desire, the mind is compromised. We do not want the state of desire to effect the mind in this way, but it is there. Take this example of deliberate blindness: “My desire is effecting my mind, and I don’t want that, but I’m going to go ahead and let that happen because the desire is more important than my conscience right now.”

Do you see what has happened? He is believing an untruth, which is truly not being in a state of knowing. The priorities have changed, the effect has already occurred. Later on, when the act is regretted, and the person is no longer in a state of desire, the mind is more free to see true priorities. Please note: we resist this observation because it looks like “making excuses”. This resistance to the observation can be explored.

continued…

 

[OneSheep]

Regret doesn’t always mean that you didn’t know something at the time. Certainly it can do, I just mean that it’s not always a lack of awareness when we sin. I think it’s often more a case of putting self first.

The state of regret, though, is a state of fuller knowledge and consent than when the sin was committed. If the state of mind was in the regretful mode when the decision to sin was at hand, the person would not choose to sin, unless desire were to override and re-prioritize regret itself, which is the same blindness that effects the conscience and empathy.

We always, at some level, put self first. If one’s “self” includes the entire human species, then it is selfish to serve everyone. Everyone we love is part of our “self”.

I know God loves us and is merciful and forgives us if we are merciful and forgive others

This is a conditional forgiveness. Even ordinary non-believers can love and forgive upon conditions being met, because this is what is comes naturally. To forgive like Jesus did from the cross is a calling to forgive beyond the conditions, beyond the confines of our natural resistance to forgiving those who themselves are unforgiving or unmerciful. The means to this end, for me, is through understanding why people sin. Upon careful reflection and investigation, but mainly through self-examination, we can see that people do not know what they are doing when they sin.

 

[claudine]

I totally agree. Th Almighty Power can do whatever He wants, whenever, however.

 

[claudine]

Onesheep,I think your response is amazingly well put, simple and understandable.