Yes, in hell, but why forever

[OneSheep]

Wow. So, you’re putting on a par the value of God and the value of humanity? Really?

Yes, God is in everyone.

And you’re saying that this was not sinful on your part?

Of course it was sinful, but I now understand that I was blinded by my desire for justice, my resentment.

God doesn’t “blame”, although He does administer His justice.

Justice for its own sake is meaningless, though. It is justice for the purpose of mercy. And since mercy is the goal, a mercy and love that is grounded in desire to remain in communion, it is not part of His will for “justice” to be any version of pushing away.

 

[OneSheep]

It was post 668 not 670.

It was in 670 that I addressed “lesser good over greater good”. You did not respond to it, you merely repeated your first assertion.

I don’t know what you mean by modes of knowledge.

There is emotional empathy. There is cognitive empathy. There is inner appreciation of human value. There is knowing the priorities through suffering. There is development of conscience. There is personal experience. There is spiritual development, knowing what it is to be in relationship with God. And then, to top it all off, there is having all these in mind at the time of a choice to act. A person who is not operating, in the moment, with all of this in mind is not operating from a position of full knowledge, but from a position of partial knowledge.

When people are operating from a position of full knowledge, they do not sin. This is observation that underscores human dignity. People naturally (at the deepest level) want the good, and when their awareness is in line with this desire, sin is not chosen. Now the question in my mind is “Will Vico address this point, or will he repeat an assertion?”

 

[Gorgias]

Yes, God is in everyone.

No. That’s “panenthism”, and that’s not what the Church teaches.

Justice for its own sake is meaningless, though. It is justice for the purpose of mercy. And since mercy is the goal

No, it’s not “mercy for its own sake”. Rather, it’s God’s love for its own sake. And, sometimes that love is expressed through mercy, and sometimes it’s expressed through justice.

As Aquinas reminds us, “Mercy without justice is the mother of dissolution; justice without mercy is cruelty.”

 

[OneSheep]

No. That’s “panenthism”, and that’s not what the Church teaches.

Matthew 25:
40 And the King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of Mine, you did for Me.’

There are many places in the Bible that support the premise that God is in all of us. While pantheism is not our doctrine, panentheism has many versions. What I am presenting here is well supported in the Gospel.

No, it’s not “mercy for its own sake”. Rather, it’s God’s love for its own sake . And, sometimes that love is expressed through mercy , and sometimes it’s expressed through justice .

If it is indeed love that is expressed through justice, then there will be no pushing away.

 

[Gorgias]

Matthew 25:
40 And the King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of Mine, you did for Me.’

There are many places in the Bible that support the premise that God is in all of us.

Oh, boy. No, that doesn’t mean that God’s literally “in us”. It means that Jesus is imputing the reward or guilt of serving others as if they were serving or rejecting Him Himself!

There are many places in the Bible that support the premise that God is in all of us. While pantheism is not our doctrine, panentheism has many versions. What I am presenting here is well supported in the Gospel.

It really isn’t. Want to try another?

If it is indeed love that is expressed through justice, then there will be no pushing away.

I get it. That’s your personal interpretation. That’s not what the Church teaches.

 

[sudy]

Jesus’ ministry was about creating the Kingdom. His ministry was about social justice, how to live an “eternal life” beginning today. He was much more focused on showing people how to live a good life, that we may find joy and live life to its fullest, unencumbered by our appetites and social trappings.

The Creed clearly states that he came for our salvation. He became our high priest, he is our spotless and innocent sacrificial lamb. He came to return us to friendship with God, which we couldn’t do alone, and to die for that purpose, as well as to cleanse us from sin and teach us how to remain that way and to lead us to eternal salvation. He taught us how to know God, and to love and serve him as well as neighbour, and how to repent and forgive.

The scripture scholar I studied under said, “We can take scripture literally unless it appears to contradict itself”. So what can make it all work is that Jesus is directly addressing in this passage the choices people make, that our choices are key to eternal life.

Our Creed, our profession of Catholic faith, clearly states that he will come again to judge the living and the dead. As to understanding scripture, I’m Catholic and therefore I’m guided by how the Church understands it. And I disagree with your scholar in any case… many things in scripture aren’t literal. There are different ways to use language. The Church guides us in which parts are literal and otherwise.

See, there are two things going on in your words there. First of all, God always forgives us, He does not condemn us. There is no “if we repent” part concerning His forgiveness, that is a condition.

As I mentioned before, scripture has conditions for salvation. Christ calls us to repentance

Catechism

1861 Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom, as is love itself. It results in the loss of charity and the privation of sanctifying grace, that is, of the state of grace. If it is not redeemed by repentance and God’s forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ’s kingdom and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back. However, although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God.

Acts 3:19

Repent, therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be wiped away,

 

[sudy]

The choice to refrain from forgiving “condemns us” to remaining enslaved to our own grudge-holding.

As well as ‘condemns us’ with separation from eternal life.

Matthew 6:12 and forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors;

V. “And Forgive Us Our Trespasses, as We Forgive Those Who Trespass AGAINST US”

2838 This petition is astonishing. If it consisted only of the first phrase, “and forgive us our trespasses,” it might have been included, implicitly, in the first three petitions of the Lord’s Prayer, since Christ’s sacrifice is “that sins may be forgiven.” But, according to the second phrase, our petition will not be heard unless we have first met a strict requirement. Our petition looks to the future, but our response must come first, for the two parts are joined by the single word “as.”

and forgive us our trespasses . . .

2840 Now - and this is daunting - this outpouring of mercy cannot penetrate our hearts as long as we have not forgiven those who have trespassed against us. […]

2844 […]Forgiveness is the fundamental condition of the reconciliation of the children of God with their Father and of men with one another.

Matthew 6:14-15 If you forgive others their transgressions, your heavenly Father will forgive you. But if you do not forgive others, neither will your Father forgive your transgressions.

Matthew 7:2 For as you judge, so will you be judged, and the measure with which you measure will be measured out to you.

I am connected to a Father who forgives without conditions. He always forgives; through His omniscience He always understands.

Certain sins require confession to be forgiven.

This natural projection of a God who condemns and punishes motivates us to behave while our own empathy, (both emotional and cognitive) is underdeveloped. People naturally equate God with the conscience/superego.

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive recompense, according to what he did in the body, whether good or evil.

2 Peter 2:9 then the Lord knows how to rescue the devout from trial and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment

I’m out of time again. Unfortunately I don’t really have lots of time on my hands, without neglecting other things, to write these long replies… so I’m going to have to take some time away from this conversation.

 

[OneSheep]

Oh, boy. No, that doesn’t mean that God’s literally “in us”. It means that Jesus is imputing the reward or guilt of serving others as if they were serving or rejecting Him Himself!

Well, if you don’t see God in everyone, then you will not understand, and the statement “God is in everyone” makes no sense.

I see God in everyone. To the degree that a person does not see God in another, infinite value, to that degree they do not know what they are doing if or when they choose to do harm.

Why Finding God In All Things Leads to Fullness of Joy — Saint John Neumann Catholic Church

One of the my favorite Christian writers is a woman who lived in fourteenth century England. We don’t even know her name. But we know her by the name of her church, which was St. Julian’s Church in Norwich, England. So she is forever known as Julian of Norwich. Julian lived from about 1342 to about

sjnsa.org

That’s not what the Church teaches.

The Church does not teach that God pushes us away, she teaches that we make choices. If it is indeed love that is expressed through justice, there will be no pushing away.

The prodigal son chose to go away, and the father longed for the lost sheep to return.

Look at it this way: The son’s asking for the inheritance was an affront, that meant the father had to sell half his assets! And then, did the son honor his father by staying, no, he went away! What an injustice! Did the father say, “Good riddance, I don’t want him here anyway. If he hadn’t left, I would have thrown him out.”? Does that describe God’s image, or does it sound more like how people think/behave, and we project that thinking/behavior on God?

 

[oliver109]

I think when Christ referred to the unrighteous he was referring to those who relish in doing wicked, who never even dream of giving up their mortal sins, he was not i don’t think referring to those who do desire to repent but still stumble occasionally and maybe happen to commit a mortal sin and then die suddenly afterwards, there are different kinds of sinners and i believe that most sinners do desire forgiveness.

 

[Nicky777]

Who can fathom the mind of God? What ever the reasons, know that they are Just.

 

[sudy]

I think when Christ referred to the unrighteous he was referring to those who relish in doing wicked, who never even dream of giving up their mortal sins, he was not i don’t think referring to those who do desire to repent but still stumble occasionally and maybe happen to commit a mortal sin and then die suddenly afterwards, there are different kinds of sinners and i believe that most sinners do desire forgiveness.

What you think is up to you… you’ve been given free will. Here’s the Catholic position.

Catechism

1022 Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification or immediately, – or immediate and everlasting damnation.

1453 The contrition called “imperfect” (or “attrition”) is also a gift of God, a prompting of the Holy Spirit. It is born of the consideration of sin’s ugliness or the fear of eternal damnation and the other penalties threatening the sinner (contrition of fear). Such a stirring of conscience can initiate an interior process which, under the prompting of grace, will be brought to completion by sacramental absolution. By itself however, imperfect contrition cannot obtain the forgiveness of grave sins, but it disposes one to obtain forgiveness in the sacrament of Penance.

Make every attempt to overcome your sins, and have perfect contrition is my advice to you. Mortal sin is a choice.

I’ve got to go…

 

[Gorgias]

Well, if you don’t see God in everyone, then you will not understand, and the statement “God is in everyone” makes no sense.

“I see God in everyone” is a statement that is distinct from “God is (literally) in everyone.” The former doesn’t imply the latter. The former talks about how you perceive the value of everyone, whereas the latter is making a panentheistic claim of composition. The Church would agree with the former, without agreeing to the latter claim.

The Church does not teach that God pushes us away, she teaches that we make choices. If it is indeed love that is expressed through justice, there will be no pushing away.

I’m not the one making the claim of “pushing away”. It’s you who is making that (inaccurate) claim. You’re building a strawman, and attempting to use it to refute my position. Doesn’t work that way.

Look at it this way: The son’s asking for the inheritance was an affront, that meant the father had to sell half his assets!

Actually, 1/3.

Did the father say, “Good riddance, I don’t want him here anyway."

No. His actions say, “ok, if you want to leave me, you may go.” That’s not “pushing away” – it’s “allowing a person to leave.”

 

[oliver109]

I don’t think that perfect contrition is something that someone can just decide on the spur of a moment, like for instance the choice to run to the shops to buy a bottle of wine, that is the problem with perfect contrition is that it is not something that can easily be chosen on the spur of the moment.

 

[sudy]

Mortal sin is ultimately a decision. You can decide against it and use the tools God gives us to fight and to overcome. Perfect contrition would actually lead you to overcome your sins… because it means putting God first in your life… before absolutely everything else. There would be no spur of the moment thing if you had a plan to overcome your sins because you’d be more watchful. You really can fight against sin and win. You just have to make a decisive choice.

 

[oliver109]

I do believe that you are right, I just like to believe that God will always forgive me should and I mean should I do the wrong thing, is it not a comforting thought? instead of the quite frankly awful idea we hear taught so often where we are told that if we die instantly after committing a mortal sin we will go straight to Hell, no matter how well we lived our lives, no matter how strong our desire was to overcome our sins, quite frankly there is a huge difference between someone who relishes committing sin like Ted Bundy or one of those serial adulterers you see on the Jerry Springer show and someone who occasionally commits a mortal sin but still feels bad about it afterwards.

 

[sudy]

There are certain things that can reduce or completely remove your culpability… habit and attachment etc… but God searches the heart and mind and will judge us accordingly…

 

[vz71]

I just like to believe that God will always forgive me should and I mean should I do the wrong thing, is it not a comforting thought? instead of the quite frankly awful idea we hear taught so often where we are told that if we die instantly after committing a mortal sin we will go straight to Hell, no matter how well we lived our lives

I suppose it would be comforting to believe there will always be another chance. It effectively removes the consequences of sin.

But the comfort found in this error is a mirage that will surely lead to hell.

 

[oliver109]

I don’t think it would remove the consequences of sin, as we see in our society today sin leads to a lot of suffering, look at the broken relationships we see, the casual sex, the men and women in their 40s who are single and regret sleeping around when they could have been building a family, the homelessness caused by people not paying enough tax to support welfare programs, children living hungry because their parents are not earning enough at work, do we really need Hell to see the consequences of sin?

 

[Fauken]

do we really need Hell to see the consequences of sin?

Loneliness, regret, homelessness, and hunger are symptoms. Not the disease. The end that sin aims for isn’t hunger, or cold, or being alone. Its ultimate end is separation from God.

 

[oliver109]

I don’t think most people who commit mortal sin aim for separation from God, if that was the case then everyone who commits mortal sin would go to Hell, that is not the case! You seem to think that everyone who sins mortally has Hell in mind.