Yes, in hell, but why forever

[Fauken]

I don’t think most people who commit mortal sin aim for separation from God, if that was the case then everyone who commits mortal sin would go to Hell, that is not the case! You seem to think that everyone who sins mortally has Hell in mind.

That’s what mortal sin is by definition. Saying mortal sin does not aim for separation from God is like saying murder does not aim to kill. From the Catechism:

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P6C.HTM

“1855 Mortal sin destroys charity in the heart of man by a grave violation of God’s law; it turns man away from God, who is his ultimate end and his beatitude, by preferring an inferior good to him.
Venial sin allows charity to subsist, even though it offends and wounds it.”

“1856 Mortal sin, by attacking the vital principle within us - that is, charity - necessitates a new initiative of God’s mercy and a conversion of heart which is normally accomplished within the setting of the sacrament of reconciliation:
When the will sets itself upon something that is of its nature incompatible with the charity that orients man toward his ultimate end, then the sin is mortal by its very object . . . whether it contradicts the love of God, such as blasphemy or perjury, or the love of neighbor, such as homicide or adultery… But when the sinner’s will is set upon something that of its nature involves a disorder, but is not opposed to the love of God and neighbor, such as thoughtless chatter or immoderate laughter and the like, such sins are venial.130”

“1861 Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom, as is love itself. It results in the loss of charity and the privation of sanctifying grace, that is, of the state of grace. If it is not redeemed by repentance and God’s forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ’s kingdom and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back. However, although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God.”

 

[oliver109]

So why does God bother to save anyone who has committed mortal sin? If it is that bad then why does God not just decide to let them die in their sins?

 

[goout]

God is distinct from God’s creation and God’s creatures. Our unity with God, or the degree of unity we share with God, does not violate “his space” or “our space”, so to speak.

New age philosophies have a difficult time with distinctions like this. And this is why sexual differentiation and the unique nature of marriage is so hard to grasp in these times. We have a distorted sense of equality and sameness.

We can be blessed by the same God, we can be chosen by the same God, we can be united with the same God, and yet each of us is a distinct person in relation to each other and especially to God.

Christ shares in our humanity, not in a space invading way, but in a universal way.

 

[Fauken]

So why does God bother to save anyone who has committed mortal sin? If it is that bad then why does God not just decide to let them die in their sins?

“1037 God predestines no one to go to hell;618for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want “any to perish, but all to come to repentance”:619”

" 1426 Conversion to Christ, the new birth of Baptism, the gift of the Holy Spirit and the Body and Blood of Christ received as food have made us “holy and without blemish,” just as the Church herself, the Bride of Christ, is "holy and without blemish.“13 Nevertheless the new life received in Christian initiation has not abolished the frailty and weakness of human nature, nor the inclination to sin that tradition calls concupiscence, which remains in the baptized such that with the help of the grace of Christ they may prove themselves in the struggle of Christian life.14 This is the struggle of conversion directed toward holiness and eternal life to which the Lord never ceases to call us.15”

 

[oliver109]

I just hope that God will save me whatever I do in my life, I aim to live sinlessly and I will be honest and say that I feel greatly upset when I end up sinning but I never despair, I feel incredibly fortunate that God has not taken me just after committing a mortal sin, hopefully it means that I am saved, I never want to die in a state of mortal sin, please pray that I wont.

 

[Fauken]

I just hope that God will save me whatever I do in my life, I aim to live sinlessly and I will be honest and say that I feel greatly upset when I end up sinning but I never despair, I feel incredibly fortunate that God has not taken me just after committing a mortal sin, hopefully it means that I am saved, I never want to die in a state of mortal sin, please pray that I wont.

I hope you don’t die in mortal sin either. But please remember that God can only save and heal us as much as we allow Him to. To use medicine as an analogy, if you don’t take what the doctor prescribes you, if you don’t stop the risky behaviors that injured you in the first place, if you aggravate your injuries, then you don’t heal. You can actually end up making your wounds worse. Healing wounds takes time and diligence. If we treat our wounds in a half baked manner, then we get half baked results. We could even cause the sickness to develop an immunity to the medicine, as the half measures of medicine are only giving the illness time to develop countermeasures to the medicine. Delaying treatment can only cause our illness to get worse. What we have is the time we have now and the Sacraments we have now. Let us use this medicine now and strive towards God now. The goodness of Our Lord is too great to wait for later. We need it more than we need air.

 

[oliver109]

Thank you, I just like the security of knowing that things will always be OK whatever I do, this is not asking for a licence to be bad it is just a way to stop stressing so much, I don’t think it is healthy to have the punishment of Hell hanging over ones mind, as I mentioned earlier and i’m sure you would remember look at how people in Sweden and Holland manage to live good lives without having constant threats of Hell, is that not a healthier way to live?

 

[Ash1]

Many people choose not to repent for their sins. There are many demons that prowl around the world for the seeking the ruin of souls. Many souls go to hell because they die in mortal sin and don’t repent. We all have free will to do what we want, but everything bad that we do has consequences.
While we still can we pray for us and for all people always.

Sirach 15:14-17

When God, in the beginning, created man, he made him subject to his own free choice. If you choose you can keep the commandments; it is loyalty to do his will. There are set before you fire and water; to whichever you choose, stretch forth your hand. Before man are life and death, whichever he chooses shall be given to him.

 

[Vico]

… Now the question in my mind is “Will Vico address this point, or will he repeat an assertion?”

I did address this point. What assertions where you thinking of?

 

[OneSheep]

The former doesn’t imply the latter. The former talks about how you perceive the value of everyone, whereas the latter is making a panentheistic claim of composition. The Church would agree with the former, without agreeing to the latter claim.

The Church has no problem with the claim that God is in all people. If you think that is incorrect, please come forth with a doctrinal statement. Did you read the article?

The point remains that if a person is not seeing infinite value in the other, then to that degree they do not know what they are doing when they sin. If a person is not seeing infinite value in people, they are unaware.

If you don’t see God in everyone, Gorgias, this is something that you are not going to understand unless, perhaps, you use your imagination.

I’m not the one making the claim of “pushing away”. It’s you who is making that (inaccurate) claim. You’re building a strawman, and attempting to use it to refute my position.

My apologies. You seemed to be endorsing the idea that God sends people to hell as an administration of justice. This is a pushing away, correct?

That’s not “pushing away” – it’s “allowing a person to leave.”

It is, but in the case of the prodigal son’s father, there was always the real possibility that the son would choose to return, which according to God as I know Him is what He wants.

God wants the sinner to return from places we choose to go when we are unaware or blind. He awaits us with open arms, and is even continuously calling. There is no roadblock to a person choosing to return to God. With God, all things are possible.

Yes, God can make a rock to big for Him to lift. First, He wills that the rock be created, and He creates it. As long as He wills that the rock is too big for Him to lift, then it will be so. However, once He wills to lift the rock, then he can indeed lift it.

God wills all people to come to Him, and with God all things are possible, a merciful, loving, forgiving possible.

 

[goout]

Human beings are created by God, who is distinctly and uniquely “other” than us. Human beings reflect the glory of God. Reflect. “My soul magnifies the Lord”
“Imago Dei”. Image of God.

We can also be united with God in the beatific vision. In that unity God is still God, and we are still us.

As with so many aspects of our relationship with God, marital union is the best analogy.
Two persons, unique and distinct, become one without losing themselves in the other.
We are not indifferent creatures, we are unique and distinct persons.

 

[OneSheep]

The Creed clearly states that he came for our salvation…

Yes, all this is true also.

Our Creed, our profession of Catholic faith, clearly states that he will come again to judge the living and the dead

The beauty of that profession is that no matter what a person’s image of God, it works. If a person’s image of God is of a God who loves/forgives conditionally, it continues to motivate the person to avoid sin. If a person’s image of God is of a God who loves/forgives unconditionally, the person can see that God judges all of us worthy and lovable, and invites everyone to be with Him in eternity.

And I disagree with your scholar in any case

He would definitely agree with your statement. He was saying, basically, that there is no harm in taking scripture literally, as fundamentalists do, as long as there is no contradiction. Much of scripture is not meant to be read literally.

If it is not redeemed by repentance and God’s forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ’s kingdom and the eternal death of hell

The “forgiveness” part, again, will depend on one’s image of God. Repentance is important, because hell, at least in concept, can be chosen. What can be observed, though, is that people only choose hell out of ignorance and/or blindness.

Acts 3:19

I think with the definition of sin as “alienation”, this makes more sense. Repentance takes the form of choosing God, which happens when people are aware, and not blind.

But, according to the second phrase, our petition will not be heard unless we have first met a strict requirement. Our petition looks to the future, but our response must come first, for the two parts are joined by the single word “as.”

and forgive us our trespasses . . .

This is a bit of editorial, reflecting an image of God where God forgives on condition. The purpose of this is to motivate people to forgive.

What the scripture scholar explained was that though God always forgives us, (as Pope Francis also states) we do not realize His forgiveness unless we forgive everyone else we hold something against. As long as we withhold forgiveness, we will psychologically project that God also withholds forgiveness.

 

[OneSheep]

2840 Now - and this is daunting - this outpouring of mercy cannot penetrate our hearts as long as we have not forgiven those who have trespassed against us. […]

Yes, this is in conformity with what the priest/scholar told us. Unless we forgive, His mercy cannot penetrate our hearts. Instead, we walk around with many grudges, pushing away holiness. It is not by intent that we push away God, at least not by our deepest intent. 2844 and Matthew 6:14-15 repeat the theme: when we don’t forgive, we cannot see that God forgives all, we remain in constant anxiety about it.

Matthew 7:2 For as you judge, so will you be judged, and the measure with which you measure will be measured out to you.

Another beautiful passage that underscores the point. If we judge (condemn) others, we will project that God judges (condemns) us. We are not seeing the True God, who does not judge us, just as Jesus asks us not to judge one another.

Certain sins require confession to be forgiven.

Again, that is projected upon God. Do people have to show you that they are sorry before you forgive? This is very natural. When this is our mode, we project that God is exactly like we are, forgiving conditionally. In all cases, though, if a person is unrepentant about sin, they will still be enslaved.

2 Corinthians 5:10

A scripture supporting purgatory. “Recompense” is mercifully administered for the benefit of the sinner, to open their eyes. It is not retribution, the natural human desire to punish wrongdoing.

2 Peter 2:9 then the Lord knows how to rescue the devout from trial and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment

I think this accurately describes enslavement to sin. “Punishment” is natural consequence, and natural consequences involve suffering, which turns our minds and hearts to humility, to righteousness, to mercy.

 

[OneSheep]

I did address this point. What assertions where you thinking of?

Okay, please show me how you addressed this Vico, with a response to the point I am making:

When people are operating from a position of full knowledge, they do not sin. This is observation that underscores human dignity. People naturally (at the deepest level) want the good , and when their awareness is in line with this desire, sin is not chosen

Your response has been to repeat where the CCC says that mortal sin involves full knowledge. That does not address my point. My point, in addition, is that when people are making choices without having in mind all the things I mentioned, the knowledge is not full, but partial. You repeat the CCC statements of moral character, if I remember right, but I am saying that without having in mind all the things I mentioned, their knowledge of moral character is not full, but partial.

When people have full knowledge, they do not choose sin. This is the premise, the observable phenomenon of human intent. To be unaware of this premise is to not know the fullness of human dignity.

 

[Gorgias]

The Church has no problem with the claim that God is in all people. If you think that is incorrect, please come forth with a doctrinal statement. Did you read the article?

You’re using that to mean literally part of us, like my arm is part of me. That’s not what’s meant when someone says “God is in me.” Yet again, you’re taking a phrase and applying it in a hyperliteral way.

The Catechism says:

because he is the free and sovereign Creator, the first cause of all that exists, God is present to his creatures’ inmost being: “In him we live and move and have our being.”

God is present to us. That doesn’t mean that He’s literally inside us.

If you don’t see God in everyone

I do – but in the metaphorical way in which that phrase is meant.

You seemed to be endorsing the idea that God sends people to hell as an administration of justice. This is a pushing away, correct?

No and no. God doesn’t send us to hell; He allows us to exist there, if through our actions, we demonstrate that we don’t want to be with Him. That, then, is not a “pushing away”.

It is, but in the case of the prodigal son’s father, there was always the real possibility that the son would choose to return, which according to God as I know Him is what He wants.

That’s because the son isn’t dead. (Which, if you recall, was the genesis of this whole thread drift…)

As long as He wills that the rock is too big for Him to lift, then it will be so. However, once He wills to lift the rock, then he can indeed lift it.

 

[OneSheep]

God is present to us. That doesn’t mean that He’s literally inside us.

I’m not seeing the distinction. It is all mysterious, correct? Did you read the article?

He allows us to exist there

So, He does not call people to be with Him?

That’s because the son isn’t dead.

Again, with God, all things are possible.

God wills that all come to Him, and people, at the deepest level, wish to be with Him.

 

[sudy]

Certain sins require confession to be forgiven.

I wasn’t speaking about my own ability to forgive. I was referring to Church teaching. Check out the Decree on Justification by the Council of Trent, Chapter 14. You can read it here http://www.ewtn.com/library/councils/trent6.htm#1

 

[OneSheep]

Certain sins require confession to be forgiven.

Look at the big picture, Sudy. What do we witness of God’s love and forgiveness? If I can forgive everyone I held something against, but the Church (or God!) does not, does that make me more forgiving than God Himself? That makes no sense at all, and does not witness the love and forgiveness that I know.

Jesus, from the cross, forgave the unrepentant. This is the model of His forgiveness that we have. Jesus “grew in wisdom”, and this forgiveness (and unconditional love!) is what we can know from the incarnation about our loving Father. Like I said, though, this call to love/forgive without limit is an invitation. Conditional forgiveness is very natural, and is not “wrong” by any measure.

In the mean time, each of us is going to witness God’s love in different ways, based on our own relationship and prayer life.

 

[sudy]

If I can forgive everyone I held something against, but the Church (or God!) does not, does that make me more forgiving than God Himself?

You’re living in a bubble when it comes to even imagining the evil acts that mankind could inflict on you or your loved ones, so no, I know you’re not more forgiving than God.

You say you’re Catholic yet you reject the church teachings and twist scripture to mean whatever you want it to. You imagine you’re still ok with God while sinning, while rejecting repentance, and you suppose Jesus taught errors. Modernism has infiltrated the foundations of your faith.

You ought to try to re-establish those basic tenets of Catholic faith. I recommend reading the catechism as it’ll cover each aspect, show you how and why each part fits together, and provide references… give you a firm footing again.

God bless.

 

[Vico]

…

OneSheep:

When people are operating from a position of full knowledge, they do not sin. This is observation that underscores human dignity. People naturally (at the deepest level) want the good , and when their awareness is in line with this desire, sin is not chosen

Your response has been to repeat where the CCC says that mortal sin involves full knowledge. That does not address my point. My point, in addition, is that when people are making choices without having in mind all the things I mentioned, the knowledge is not full, but partial. You repeat the CCC statements of moral character, if I remember right, but I am saying that without having in mind all the things I mentioned, their knowledge of moral character is not full, but partial.

When people have full knowledge, they do not choose sin. This is the premise, the observable phenomenon of human intent. To be unaware of this premise is to not know the fullness of human dignity.

Because we know that mortal sin has occurred and that it requires both full knowledge and a free will choice, it cannot be that what you call full knowledge is what the Catholic Church calls full knowledge.

I wrote before (post 683): “The event of mortal sin is the destroying of charity (love) in the heart.”

• Using the Catholic Church definition of full knowledge they may choose sin
• Even without having in mind all the things you mentioned, the knowledge of moral character of an act or omission can be full, meaning sufficient.

RECONCILIATION AND PENANCE of St. John Paul II, referring to intrinsically evil acts, qualifies awareness with “sufficient” not absolute:

“These acts, if carried out with sufficient awareness and freedom, are always gravely sinful.(96)”
96. Cf Council of Trent, Session IV De Iustificatione, Chapt. 15: Conciliorum Oecumenicorum Decreta, ed. dt. 677 (DS 1544).

http://w2.vatican.va/content/john-p...xh_02121984_reconciliatio-et-paenitentia.html

Catholic Encyclopedia has a synopsis on this:

… a dictate of conscience necessarily involves a knowledge of the Divine law as a principle of morality.
…
From the condemnation of the errors of Baius and Jansenius (Denz.-Bann., 1046, 1066, 1094, 1291-2) it is clear that for an actual personal sin a knowledge of the law and a personal voluntary act, free from coercion and necessity, are required. No mortal sin is committed in a state of invincible ignorance or in a half-conscious state. Actual advertence to the sinfulness of the act is not required, virtual advertence suffices. It is not necessary that the explicit intention to offend God and break His law be present, the full and free consent of the will to an evil act suffices.

O’Neil, A.C. (1912). Sin. In The Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm

Catechism

705 Disfigured by sin and death, man remains “in the image of God,” in the image of the Son, but is deprived “of the glory of God,” 66 of his “likeness.”