Yes, in hell, but why forever

[Lavenderson]

There are three descriptions of the nature of hell discussed by Church Fathers of the past.

1. Eternal Torment (the Church supported view)
2. Annihilation (the damned suffer what they are due, then they cease to exist)
3. Universalism (all will be saved, even the devil himself)

Universalism is poison, and is to be avoided like poison. Eternal Torment and Annihilation are two sides of the same coin, since the experience of hell from the perspective of the damned will feel exactly like eternal torment without relief. But observing the final destruction of hell from the perspective of Heaven will appear as an eventual annihilation of hell and all those in it from existence itself.

If you go to hell, experiencing it eternally is justified because anything less would contradict God’s justice. However, God died for us once, and His Passion is the last chance hand He extends to us as we are sinking in the quicksand of hell, and this very act is God’s mercy manifested.

When God destroys hell once and for all, the damned will cease to be. But this is not equivalent to experiencing a neutral relief from both Heavenly bliss and hellish torment, as annihilation might sound at first glance. Once in hell, the damned will know nothing but torment for as long as they possess “being” itself and for as long as they have the ability to “experience” whatsoever. Maybe this is why the Church has traditionally emphasized the “eternal torment” side of the hell coin instead of the “annihilation” side, which I unhesitatingly support as with all dogmas of the Church.

But those in heaven will not have to worry about experiencing Heaven while knowing many souls are simultaneously experiencing hell. There won’t be a hell one day, and the damned will perish with it, knowing only eternal torment without the privilege of experiencing a “rest” from it.

 

[OneSheep]

Is there a “good life” without God?

What is the person thinking in terms of the source of pleasure, purpose, and the ability to imagine?

Is he thinking that there is a “good life” in hell?

I see, he is thinking that the afterlife does not matter. Is this the truth, that the afterlife does not matter?

So why would a selfish person that is committed to his own agenda be interested in being a servant of love for all eternity if he is not interested in being a servant of love in this world here and now?

That is a very good question. Do you have the cognitive empathy to be able to answer for him? What would be his answer?

Of course, nobody wants to suffer in hell, but that does not mean that he would want to be in heaven either/ the concept of heaven being properly understood.

Let me try to put this into his words. Please feel free to correct them:

“I understand that heaven involves my being a slave to serving other people. I don’t want this, I would rather be free in hell than enslaved in heaven.”

Is this what he is thinking?

 

[OneSheep]

“evil is never without some good of nature, whereas good can be perfect without the evil of fault.” St. Thomas Aquinas - http://www.newadvent.org/summa/2078.htm

“Now he would not have coveted it inordinately, by desiring it according to his measure as established by the Divine rule. Hence it follows that man’s first sin consisted in his coveting some spiritual good above his measure: and this pertains to pride. Therefore it is evident that man’s first sin was pride.”
St. Thomas Aquinas - http://www.newadvent.org/summa/3163.htm

This does not demonstrate actual thinking, it is a judgment/characterization of the content of their thinking without examining the actual thought. This demonstrates an objective to judge rather than an objective to understand.

Q. Even the Gospel sends a mixed message, Vico.
A. No, repent and be saved, blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven, go and sin no more,

• “Father forgive them, for they know not what they do” said Jesus to the unrepentant crowd.
• The prodigal son’s Father ran out to greet his son when he saw him from a distance.
• Jesus calls us to avoid judging, and calls us to “be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect”, so judging is not of the Father.

In addition, the assertion of the “blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven” can be seen by Catholics as having to do with the experience of forgiveness, which cannot be realized unless the the person is open to God’s forgiveness.

What is perfectly acceptable in Catholicism is to see that it is not man’s behavior, Vico, that controls or determines God’s forgiveness. God always forgives us, as Pope Francis says. Our own experience of that forgiveness is made manifest when we forgive others, when we forgive ourselves, and especially when we accept God’s forgiveness. It is also acceptable in the Church to think that God’s love and forgiveness is conditioned on the mindset of the person. There is plenty of room in the Church for different images of God.

It appears that you are more drawn to a more judgmental image. Is that true?

 

[Vico]

…

Q. This does not demonstrate actual thinking, it is a judgment/characterization of the content of their thinking without examining the actual thought.
Q. What does not demonstate actual thinking? Did you read the S.T. that I linked that contains the thinking?

Q. In addition, the assertion of the “blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven” can be seen by Catholics as having to do with the experience of forgiveness, which cannot be realized unless the the person is open to God’s forgiveness.
A. What is not realized without the contrition proper to reconciliation, is the restoration of sanctifying grace. The person then remains in their sins.

Catechism

1428 Christ’s call to conversion continues to resound in the lives of Christians. This second conversion is an uninterrupted task for the whole Church who, "clasping sinners to her bosom, [is] at once holy and always in need of purification, [and] follows constantly the path of penance and renewal."18 This endeavor of conversion is not just a human work. It is the movement of a “contrite heart,” drawn and moved by grace to respond to the merciful love of God who loved us first.

1453 The contrition called “imperfect” (or “attrition”) is also a gift of God, a prompting of the Holy Spirit. It is born of the consideration of sin’s ugliness or the fear of eternal damnation and the other penalties threatening the sinner (contrition of fear). Such a stirring of conscience can initiate an interior process which, under the prompting of grace, will be brought to completion by sacramental absolution. By itself however, imperfect contrition cannot obtain the forgiveness of grave sins, but it disposes one to obtain forgiveness in the sacrament of Penance.52

A quote also follows from St. John Paul II from his book Crossing the Threshold of Hope where he states that it is unequivocal that some will go to eternal damnation:

The problem of hell has always disturbed great thinkers in the Church, beginning with Origen and
continuing in our time with Sergey Bulgakov and Hans Urs von Balthasar. In point of fact, the
ancient councils rejected the theory of the “final apocatastasis,” according to which the world
would be regenerated after destruction, and every creature would be saved; a theory which
indirectly abolished hell. But the problem remains. Can God, who has loved man so much, permit
the man who rejects Him to be condemned to eternal torment? And yet, the words of Christ are
unequivocal. In Matthew’s Gospel He speaks clearly of those who will go to eternal punishment (cf.
Mt 25:46). Who will these be? The Church has never made any pronouncement in this regard. This
is a mystery, truly inscrutable, which embraces the holiness of God and the conscience of man. The
silence of the Church is, therefore, the only appropriate position for Christian faith. Even when
Jesus says of Judas, the traitor, “It would be better for that man if he had never been born” (Mt
26:24), His words do not allude for certain to eternal damnation

 

[OneSheep]

Q. What does not demonstate actual thinking? Did you read the S.T. that I linked that contains the thinking?

I can’t find it Vico, no, I did not read all the links. If you have the energy to find it for me, great, but nothing I have seen you post contained the contents of people’s thoughts, only evaluations of their thoughts or motives.

A. What is not realized without the contrition proper to reconciliation, is the restoration of sanctifying grace. The person then remains in their sins.

What I am saying is that Catholics can believe that God’s forgiveness is always there, but without such contrition, they do not experience holiness and connection, they remain alienated from their own love of God. Nothing separates us from the love of God; the alienation (sin) occurs within. Do you see how this upholds that God loves and forgives always, whether or not there is contrition, yet maintains that there is an alienation, a sin, that is present?

1428 and 1453 appear to support this image, until one gets to this line:

By itself however, imperfect contrition cannot obtain the forgiveness of grave sins, but it disposes one to obtain forgiveness in the sacrament of Penance.

Again, this use of “forgiveness” may at its face present the idea that God forgives conditionally, and/or that we have control over His willingness to forgive. If we remember, again, that what this is talking about is experiencing the real sense of His forgiveness, then it makes sense in terms of what I am presenting. He forgives us, but we do not experience an eternal (good) life that begins in the moment today because “imperfect contrition”.

It needs to be noted that neither of those verses address understanding people, why we sin.

St. John Paul II from his book Crossing the Threshold of Hope

Using Matthew 25:46, in the context of arguing that there are definitely people in hell is a very weak position. The whole story about sheep and goats refers to every one of us, as we have all sinned, and we have all done good things for others. Saint JP II expressed an opinion on a parable which had the purpose of motivating us to look within, and be attentive to, the parts of ourselves that drive us either to serve the poor and imprisoned or neglect them.

Remember, Vico, I am not saying that your position is wrong. I am saying that there is room for other images of God.

 

[Vico]

…

Q. Do you see how this upholds that God loves and forgives always, whether or not there is contrition, yet maintains that there is an alienation, a sin, that is present?
A. No. Forgiveness is not unconditional. It seems that you are using a different definition of forgiveness. Forgiveness is Pardon or remission of an offense. It seems that you are describing is not forgiveness but inclination.

Q. Using Matthew 25:46, in the context of arguing that there are definitely people in hell is a very weak position.
A. The unequivocal statement from Jesus Christ is not weak. It is final impenitence not the amount of sins in a persons live that determines the final state. Christ does not cover our sins, but rather God forgives sins to the truly repentant immediately through an act of perfect contrition, or mediately through a sacrament. The sins when forgiven are actually removed from the soul; the stain of sin – loss of sanctifying grace – remains in the soul even when the act of sin is past.

Q. What does not demonstrate actual thinking? … why we sin.
A. Thinking: the process of using one’s mind to consider or reason about something.
The actual thinking is described by St. Thomas Aquinas (just one example):

Reply to Objection 4. According to Augustine (Gen. ad lit. xi, 30), “the woman had not believed the serpent’s statement that they were debarred by God from a good and useful thing, were her mind not already filled with the love of her own power, and a certain proud self-presumption.” This does not mean that pride preceded the promptings of the serpent, but that as soon as the serpent had spoken his words of persuasion, her mind was puffed up, the result being that she believed the demon to have spoken truly.

http://www.newadvent.org/summa/3163.htm

Jesus refers to Isaiah 66 here in
Mark 9:47-48

“And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. Better for you to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into Gehenna, 48 where ‘their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.’”

Isaiah 66:

23 From new moon to new moon,
and from sabbath to sabbath,
All flesh shall come to worship
before me, says the LORD.
24 They shall go out and see the corpses
of the people who rebelled against me;
For their worm shall not die,
their fire shall not be extinguished;
and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.

 

[OneSheep]

No. Forgiveness is not unconditional. It seems that you are using a different definition of forgiveness. Forgiveness is Pardon or remission of an offense. It seems that you are describing is not forgiveness but inclination.

I am describing forgiveness from the heart. I am saying that there is room for Catholics to believe that God forgives, unconditionally as He loves, since His love and mercy are infinite.

Q: Would you go so far, to say that it is wrong for a Catholic to believe that God loves and forgives unconditionally, that He always forgives us no matter what happens? I ask this defining forgiveness as “forgiveness from the heart”, just as Jesus asks of us toward one another. This is also saying that even if there is a punishment involved, it comes from a position of forgiveness from the heart, and the punishment is there mercifully for the purpose of rehabilitating the sinner.

but rather God forgives sins to the truly repentant immediately

So, just to let you know, many, many Catholics experience a love from their own parents such that they are forgiven no matter what their own “contrition”. Yes, there may be a punishment for the purpose of influencing the child not to repeat a wrong, but even in giving that punishment, it is done with mercy, with a heart of forgiveness. To Catholics that have experienced this unconditional love/forgiveness from their own parents, the image of a God who is less loving/forgiving makes no sense at all. It makes their own parents have a more “infinite” love than God.

Q: Does this image of God, one who loves/forgives unconditionally, worry you, Vico?

 

[OneSheep]

Reply to Objection 4. According to Augustine (Gen. ad lit. xi, 30), “the woman had not believed the serpent’s statement that they were debarred by God from a good and useful thing, were her mind not already filled with the love of her own power, and a certain proud self-presumption.”

Contained within this evaluation is a judgmental assumption, that her mind was "filled with the love of her own power, and a certain proud self-presumption. These are not demonstrations of actual thinking, they are judgments of a person’s thoughts without actually scrutinizing what she thought, or what she could have thought.

The only demonstration in Objection 4 is when he said "“the woman had not believed the serpent’s statement… were”, implying that the woman did believe the serpent’s statement.

Now, if we take a look at that line of thinking, “I believe the serpent”, and then pray for the gift of understanding, one can put aside any initial gut-level judgments and simply try to understand why the woman would believe a falsehood. While it must be first noted that a person who believes a falsehood does not have “full knowledge” but “compromised knowledge”, one can see that Augustine is somewhat correct in saying that there is something that Eve wants, she has desire, and that desire has influenced her mind.

So again, using the gift of Understanding, we can ask “why would God create a being for which desire influences the mind, essentially blinding the creature to their own consciences?” After all, Vico, we were created by God, not by some other force or being.

Keeping forefront that prayer-for-understanding, that is, to understand without judging, without blaming, but simply seeking without judging, what would be your answer, why would God create us this way?

Mark 9:47-48

“And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. Better for you to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into Gehenna, 48 where ‘their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.’”

This is not to be taken literally, Vico. It is a call to pay attention to our desires, and to avoid sin; that is the point. Real punishment takes the form of suffering alienation within.

24 They shall go out and see the corpses
of the people who rebelled against me;
For their worm shall not die,
their fire shall not be extinguished;
and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.

This is a demonstration of how the mind works when someone is very resentful. One wants to severely punish the wrongdoer, and one projects that God would approve.

Catholics of sincere faith can reject that image, Vico. From the cross, Jesus forgave the unrepentant.

 

[Vico]

…

Q: Would you go so far, to say that it is wrong for a Catholic to believe that God loves and forgives unconditionally …
A. Yes. But I am not worried. The Truth is what is important. The Catholic Church teaches us that a person may remain in sins, even though God has the desire for universal salvation and would restore the person to sanctifying grace if that person was not preventing it.

Catechism

2091 The first commandment is also concerned with sins against hope, namely, despair and presumption: …

2092 There are two kinds of presumption. Either man presumes upon his own capacities, (hoping to be able to save himself without help from on high), or he presumes upon God’s almighty power or his mercy (hoping to obtain his forgiveness without conversion and glory without merit).

1730 God created man a rational being, conferring on him the dignity of a person who can initiate and control his own actions. "God willed that man should be ‘left in the hand of his own counsel,’ so that he might of his own accord seek his Creator and freely attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to him."26

Man is rational and therefore like God; he is created with free will and is master over his acts.27

1861 Mortal sin … If it is not redeemed by repentance and God’s forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ’s kingdom and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back. …

 

[Vico]

…

Q. These are not demonstrations of actual thinking
A. If you will not accept the dictionary definition of thinking then I think you make it impossible to do anything but to accept the teaching of the Catholic Church dogma entirely on faith, that Adam and Eve lost their original justice through a grave personal sin, a mortal sin.

Q. While it must be first noted that a person who believes a falsehood does not have “full knowledge” but “compromised knowledge”, one can see that Augustine is somewhat correct in saying that there is something that Eve wants, she has desire, and that desire has influenced her mind.
A. Eve had full knowledge as needed for mortal sin: Gen 3:2 The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat of the fruit of the trees in the garden; 3 but God said, ‘You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree that is in the middle of the garden, nor shall you touch it, or you shall die.’”
Through pride she chose not to trust God.

Q. Keeping forefront that prayer-for-understanding, that is, to understand without judging, without blaming, but simply seeking without judging, what would be your answer, why would God create us this way?
A. We are taught to discriminate between good and evil, and to help our brothers and sisters that we see falling into sin. That is not condemnation but it is a judging per the definition: “form an opinion or conclusion about.” Galatians 6:1 “Brethren, and if a man be overtaken in any fault, you, who are spiritual, instruct such a one in the spirit of meekness, considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.”

Q. This is not to be taken literally, Vico.
A. It is not posted as a literal statement, but for the truth in it that there is eternal condemnation for those that do not have final repentance.

Q. This is a demonstration of how the mind works when someone is very resentful.
A. God is perfect so does not have resentment. This is describing justice. See also: Romans 12:
“19 Revenge not yourselves, my dearly beloved; but give place unto wrath, for it is written: Revenge is mine, I will repay, saith the Lord.”

Q. From the cross, Jesus forgave the unrepentant.
A. No. He asked the Father to in future. However he had the power to forgive and did so for the repentant thief.

 

[Gorgias]

Jesus calls us to avoid judging, and calls us to “be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect”, so judging is not of the Father.

Wait – if we’re not supposed to judge, then that doesn’t imply that the Father doesn’t judge.

(And, the “perfection” talked about here is telos – that is, the goal to which we’re intended to attain. So, Jesus is telling us to strive for what we’re supposed to be, just as the Father is what He’s supposed to be. No mention of ‘judging’ here.)

 

[OneSheep]

Q: Would you go so far, to say that it is wrong for a Catholic to believe that God loves and forgives unconditionally, that He always forgives us no matter what happens? I ask this defining forgiveness as “forgiveness from the heart”, just as Jesus asks of us toward one another. This is also saying that even if there is a punishment involved, it comes from a position of forgiveness from the heart , and the punishment is there mercifully for the purpose of rehabilitating the sinner

A. Yes.

Your opinion. I am quite glad you do not speak for the church!

Pope Francis ‏Verified account @ Pontifex

God is always waiting for us, he always understands us, he always forgives us.

 

[OneSheep]

Wait – if we’re not supposed to judge, then that doesn’t imply that the Father doesn’t judge.

(And, the “perfection” talked about here is telos – that is, the goal to which we’re intended to attain. So, Jesus is telling us to strive for what we’re supposed to be, just as the Father is what He’s supposed to be. No mention of ‘judging’ here.)

Here it is in context: note the lack of goal-oriented perfection, it is a love-oriented perfection:

Love for Enemies​

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[i] and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

The sun rises and he sends rain upon everyone. If you are seeing judging there, my friend, you are missing the point. Jesus commands us not to judge one another, and says we are to be perfect as our Father is perfect, so when we judge, we are not demonstrating the perfection of the Father, who gives us the sun and the rain regardless of our behavior. I know that is hard to hear, but it’s all there.

#Luke 6:31-36 New International Version (NIV)

31 Do to others as you would have them do to you.

32 “If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do that. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, expecting to be repaid in full. 35 But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36 Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

Here’s an extension: Do you forgive only when the other is contrite? What credit is that to you? Even sinners do that. Forgive as the Father forgives, for his forgiveness comes from infinite mercy; He forgives the ungrateful and wicked.

From the cross, Jesus forgave the unrepentant.

 

[Elf01]

Here’s an extension: Do you forgive only when the other is contrite? What credit is that to you? Even sinners do that. Forgive as the Father forgives, for his forgiveness comes from infinite mercy; He forgives the ungrateful and wicked.

Since contrition is required for a valid absolution (at least if the sin is mortal) I would question that.

 

[Gorgias]

If you are seeing judging there, my friend, you are missing the point.

Fair enough. However, if you’re seeing – by a lack of mention of ‘judgement’ – that judgement itself does not exist, then my friend, you’re missing the point. We also don’t see the Eucharist there – does that mean that there is no such thing as the Eucharist? We do not see heavenly reward for humans there – does that mean that only God is in heaven?

I’m afraid you’re extrapolating invalidly, here.

Here’s an extension: Do you forgive only when the other is contrite? What credit is that to you? Even sinners do that. Forgive as the Father forgives, for his forgiveness comes from infinite mercy; He forgives the ungrateful and wicked.

Here’s a Scriptural counter-example, to refute your suggestion. it’s found in Matthew 18:

15 “If your brother sins [against you], go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother.

16 If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that ‘every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses.’

17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.

Seems pretty clear that this isn’t “forgiveness of the ungrateful and wicked.”

 

[OneSheep]

Frankly, I’m not finding a counter-example there.

Take a look:

If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.

How are we to treat Gentiles or tax collectors? Well, mercifully. And forgiveness is one of the “greatest acts of mercy”. If my brother has sinned against me, and I hold it against him, then I am called to forgive (Mark 11:25).

So then, what is meant in Matthew 18:17? If your brother sins against you, forgive, but if he doesn’t listen to you, disassociate from him, do not let him sin against you again. Save yourself!

However, if you’re seeing – by a lack of mention of ‘judgement’ – that judgement itself does not exist, then my friend, you’re missing the point. We also don’t see the Eucharist there – does that mean that there is no such thing as the Eucharist? We do not see heavenly reward for humans there – does that mean that only God is in heaven?

I’m not following your reasoning, but I do wish to repeat that people have different images of God. I am not saying that seeing God as non-judgmental is the only valid way of seeing Him, I am only saying that there are other ways, and those other ways have support in scripture.

 

[Gorgias]

How are we to treat Gentiles or tax collectors? Well, mercifully.

That’s not how they treated Gentiles and tax collectors back then. And, perhaps surprisingly to you, that’s exactly the standard Jesus is asking them to apply to those within the community who refuse to ask forgiveness in the face of the censure of the community.

If your brother sins against you, forgive, but if he doesn’t listen to you, disassociate from him, do not let him sin against you again.

Can you show me where it says “forgive” there? Especially “forgive even without reconciliation”?

 

[goout]

The problem with the problem of hell is that no one demands an explanation of God for eternal bliss.

 

[Vico]

Vico:

Q: Would you go so far, to say that it is wrong for a Catholic to believe that God loves and forgives unconditionally, that He always forgives us no matter what happens? I ask this defining forgiveness as “forgiveness from the heart”, just as Jesus asks of us toward one another. This is also saying that even if there is a punishment involved, it comes from a position of forgiveness from the heart , and the punishment is there mercifully for the purpose of rehabilitating the sinner

A. Yes.

Your opinion. I am quite glad you do not speak for the church!

Pope Francis ‏Verified account @ Pontifex

God is always waiting for us, he always understands us, he always forgives us.

He always forgives us, yes. We must repent in order to restore grace, therefore it is conditional upon us. The topic is conditional forgiveness.

Catechism

1485 “On the evening of that day, the first day of the week,” Jesus showed himself to his apostles. “He breathed on them, and said to them: 'Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained”’ ( ⇒ Jn 20:19, ( ⇒ 22-23).

 

[Vico]

…

What does “an explanation of God for eternal bliss” mean?