Yes, in hell, but why forever

[goout]

goout:

…

What does “an explanation of God for eternal bliss” mean?

Not sure how I can be more clear.
No one demands God explain why eternal bliss (aka “heaven”) is possible.

There is a fundamental disconnect in even asking the OP question. It assumes a compartmentalized view of human life.

 

[OneSheep]

That’s not how they treated Gentiles and tax collectors back then.

You’re not suggesting that Jesus endorsed treating Gentiles and tax collectors unmercifully, right? It is more like He was saying to avoid them, as they may do you harm. That is the point, that if someone doesn’t listen, repent, from the harm they have done, “sinned against you”, then avoid them.

Can you show me where it says “forgive” there? Especially “forgive even without reconciliation”?

I think you meant “forgive without repentance or contrition” right? Again, we have to look to the cross to remember that He forgave the unrepentant.

 

[Gorgias]

You’re not suggesting that Jesus endorsed treating Gentiles and tax collectors unmercifully, right? It is more like He was saying to avoid them, as they may do you harm.

Fine. “Do no harm.” Still, though, that runs short of “forgive them”, since they aren’t apologizing or even accepting your forgiveness of them!

I think you meant “forgive without repentance or contrition” right?

Reconciliation follows where contrition and repentance exist. It does not follow where these aren’t present.

Again, we have to look to the cross to remember that He forgave the unrepentant.

We’ve been through this. He was indicating that the sin wasn’t mortal, since they didn’t know what they were doing.

 

[Vico]

Vico:

goout:

…

What does “an explanation of God for eternal bliss” mean?

Not sure how I can be more clear.
No one demands God explain why eternal bliss (aka “heaven”) is possible.

There is a fundamental disconnect in even asking the OP question. It assumes a compartmentalized view of human life.

The OP finds it hard to understand that that hell must be eternal, so I see what you intended now, thank you.

 

[goout]

Starvation is cruel. The process of starvation is agnonizing. Why? Because it is so good to be alive, and our bodies are ordered to sustain ourselves with food, enjoy it, and live.
Starvation is so bad because to eat and live well is a great good.

One does not make sense without the other. So to be consistent, if I am going to question God about the permanence of hell, I must also question God about the permanence of heaven.

Gratitude is the key. Eu-charist. To offer our lives, the whole of them, in gratitude to God. Very difficult, but that is the way that Christ leads.

 

[Elf01]

One does not make sense without the other. So to be consistent, if I am going to question God about the permanence of hell, I must also question God about the permanence of heaven.

Eteenal bliss does not require work to reconcile with a loving God. Eternal torment does.

 

[yammerGee]

One does not make sense without the other. So to be consistent, if I am going to question God about the permanence of hell, I must also question God about the permanence of heaven.

Does God make sense without Satan/evil?

Of course, because God preexisted both. Therefore the notion that heaven cannot make sense without an equivalent permanent hell (though not necessarily no hell) does not seem to follow. Catholicism is not dualism. God is good. Evil is a lack of good, not an equivalent opposite.

 

[Vico]

goout:

One does not make sense without the other. So to be consistent, if I am going to question God about the permanence of hell, I must also question God about the permanence of heaven.

Eteenal bliss does not require work to reconcile with a loving God. Eternal torment does.

Catchism

1022 Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification 594 or immediately, 595 – or immediate and everlasting damnation. 596

At the evening of life, we shall be judged on our love.597

594 Cf. Council of Lyons II (1274)S 857-858; Council of Florence (1439)S 1304- 1306; Council of Trent (1563)S 1820.
595 Cf. Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus (1336)S 1000-1001; John XXII, Ne super his (1334)S 990.
596 Cf. Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus (1336)S 1002.
597 St. John of the Cross, Dichos 64.

 

[goout]

goout:

One does not make sense without the other. So to be consistent, if I am going to question God about the permanence of hell, I must also question God about the permanence of heaven.

Does God make sense without Satan/evil?

Of course, because God preexisted both. Therefore the notion that heaven cannot make sense without an equivalent permanent hell (though not necessarily no hell) does not seem to follow. Catholicism is not dualism. God is good. Evil is a lack of good, not an equivalent opposite.

Not claiming dualism.

I am observing that human beings have free will. We are responsible in our free will. That responsibility has eternal consequences for us. I want to spend eternity with Christ!
We can’t accept the “good side of the ledger” as simply due us, while not accepting the “bad side of the ledger”, and calling God into the dock for the consequences of our sin.

Human responsibility is the point. And Christ demonstrates full human responsibility, redeeming all the human condition, all of it… and thereby giving us the path of grace.
We are not exempt from this path of grace. Human life and our eternal destiny (including the consequences of sin) only make sense in light of the good that is possible.
Maybe I don’t express myself well here.

 

[oliver109]

So you have the quote “at the evening of life we shall be judged on our love” does this then mean that a person who always tried to do what is right, was an upstanding member of their community and a place of refuge for the poor and vulnerable but happened to die after committing a mortal sin would have an easier time at the particular judgement than someone who never bothered to do the right thing and always defended their selfishness who also died after committing a mortal sin?

 

[yammerGee]

You’ve expressed yourself well; I agree with everything you’ve said here.

My nitpick is with the idea we can infer hell is eternal simply due to the truth that heaven is eternal, on the grounds that “One does not make sense without the other”…“to be consistent.”

Now, perhaps we can reason that hell is eternal through other means. But taking heaven’s attributes and applying them to hell, “for consistency,” cannot be one of them, because good and evil are not simple opposites. It cannot logically follow from the first premise.

 

[goout]

You’ve expressed yourself well; I agree with everything you’ve said here.

My nitpick is with the idea we can infer hell is eternal simply due to the truth that heaven is eternal, on the grounds that “One does not make sense without the other”…“to be consistent.”

Now, perhaps we can reason that hell is eternal through other means. But taking heaven’s attributes and applying them to hell, “for consistency,” cannot be one of them, because good and evil are not simple opposites. It cannot logically follow from the first premise.

Agreed.
I am not making that leap.

A dog that is chained to a 6’ radius, does not know what it’s like to roam free. If you remove the chain the dog will not go out immediately. It doesn’t know it’s confined (enslaved) until it realizes there is a lot more to experience.

Likewise a human being that does not accept free responsibility cannot know what it is to be truly free. Responsibility opens up radical possibilities, one of which is timeless hell.

 

[Vico]

So you have the quote “at the evening of life we shall be judged on our love” does this then mean that a person who always tried to do what is right, was an upstanding member of their community and a place of refuge for the poor and vulnerable but happened to die after committing a mortal sin would have an easier time at the particular judgement than someone who never bothered to do the right thing and always defended their selfishness who also died after committing a mortal sin?

It is final state of sanctifying grace that is the measure of love, not a predominance of good or bad during life. Any merit accumulated for the person, during life after baptism, is lost with mortal sin, unless it be restored again with sanctifying grace.

 

[oliver109]

Is that not unfair though to those who lived genuinely good lives but happened to stumble at the last minute? Now you will probably say that a truly good person would not sin at the last minute but there are countless examples of upstanding people who have committed mortal sins, they did not have to commit mortal sins but they did and if they feel repentant they deserve our mercy. They don’t deserve to be forgotten.

 

[OneSheep]

Fine. “Do no harm.” Still, though, that runs short of “forgive them”, since they aren’t apologizing or even accepting your forgiveness of them!

Jesus calls us to forgive those we hold anything against. If there was no grievance, then he would not have confronted the sinner nor taken him to the Church. There was a “holding against”, so forgiveness is called for, even before the confrontation.

Reconciliation follows where contrition and repentance exist. It does not follow where these aren’t present.

Yes. Relationship requires, when applicable, contrition and repentance on the part of the sinner. This does not change God’s forgiveness.

Again, we have to look to the cross to remember that He forgave the unrepentant.

Gorgias:

We’ve been through this. He was indicating that the sin wasn’t mortal, since they didn’t know what they were doing.

Jesus was saying that He understood why they were doing what they were doing, and He forgave them from His heart, which we know to be the heart of our creator. The point I am making is that He did not wait for them to repent.

Objectively speaking, torture and murder is seriously sinful, correct? Yet, He did not wait for their repentance.

 

[goout]

Is that not unfair though to those who lived genuinely good lives but happened to stumble at the last minute? Now you will probably say that a truly good person would not sin at the last minute but there are countless examples of upstanding people who have committed mortal sins, they did not have to commit mortal sins but they did and if they feel repentant they deserve our mercy. They don’t deserve to be forgotten.

The exact disposition of any particular soul is a mystery.
What is mystery? It’s not the loss of faith or a capitulation to ignorance. Mystery draws us in to further understanding.
I love the CCC on hope:

Hope

[1817] Hope is the theological virtue by which we desire the kingdom of heaven and eternal life as our happiness, placing our trust in Christ’s promises and relying not on our own strength, but on the help of the grace of the Holy Spirit. "Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful."84 "The Holy Spirit . . . he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life."85

[1818] The virtue of hope responds to the aspiration to happiness which God has placed in the heart of every man; it takes up the hopes that inspire men’s activities and purifies them so as to order them to the Kingdom of heaven; it keeps man from discouragement; it sustains him during times of abandonment; it opens up his heart in expectation of eternal beatitude. Buoyed up by hope, he is preserved from selfishness and led to the happiness that flows from charity.

[1819] Christian hope takes up and fulfills the hope of the chosen people which has its origin and model in the hope of Abraham , who was blessed abundantly by the promises of God fulfilled in Isaac, and who was purified by the test of the sacrifice.86 "Hoping against hope, he believed, and thus became the father of many nations."87

…
Hope is also a weapon that protects us in the struggle of salvation: "Let us . . . put on the breastplate of faith and charity, and for a helmet the hope of salvation."90 It affords us joy even under trial: "Rejoice in your hope, be patient in tribulation."91Hope is expressed and nourished in prayer, especially in the Our Father, the summary of everything that hope leads us to desire.

[1821] We can therefore hope in the glory of heaven promised by God to those who love him and do his will.92 In every circumstance, each one of us should hope, with the grace of God, to persevere "to the end"93 and to obtain the joy of heaven, as God’s eternal reward for the good works accomplished with the grace of Christ. In hope, the Church prays for "all men to be saved."94 She longs to be united with Christ, her Bridegroom, in the glory of heaven:

 

[Vico]

Is that not unfair though to those who lived genuinely good lives but happened to stumble at the last minute? Now you will probably say that a truly good person would not sin at the last minute but there are countless examples of upstanding people who have committed mortal sins, they did not have to commit mortal sins but they did and if they feel repentant they deserve our mercy. They don’t deserve to be forgotten.

Some have thought that mortal sin is not a specific action bur rather an orientation in general such that if an individual makes the fundamental option for God, then grave actions and omissions cannot be mortal sins, because, the person means well. But this is contrary to Catholic teachings. St. John Paul II gave, in paragraphs 65-70 of Veritatis Splendor :

the so-called fundamental option, to the extent that it is distinct from a generic intention and hence one not yet determined in such a way that freedom is obligated, is always brought into play through conscious and free decisions . . . .
To separate the fundamental option from concrete kinds of behavior means to contradict the substantial integrity or personal unity of the moral agent in his body and in his soul.

 

[Prodigal1984]

There is no concept of time.
Eternal life won’t feel like time as we know it. In fact forever isn’t even something to be grasped. We won’t see it as past present future, it just is.

 

[Pug]

Eternal life won’t feel like time as we know it. In fact forever isn’t even something to be grasped. We won’t see it as past present future, it just is.

This makes more sense to me when we don’t have bodies. After the resurrection, surely we can move an arm or finger, leading to a before and after?

 

[OneSheep]

if they feel repentant they deserve our mercy

Do people only deserve mercy if they are repentant?

They don’t deserve to be forgotten.

Have you heard “If something in scripture or doctrine sounds like God loves us less than the person who loves us most, then something is amiss.”?

It comes from Good Goats: Healing Your Image of God by the Linns.