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SteelArchangel
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Reading that implies that somewhere between physically dying and God judging, that there is a limbo where you can still repent?
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oliver109
Guest
Why should our sins cause us to lose our salvation? just think about a man who gets sacked from his job for being aggressive and violent, goes to prison and ends up homeless, would you refuse to help him because he did a lot of wrong before? would deny him a sort of salvation so to speak?
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Fauken
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Do we deserve it?
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oliver109
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No we don’t deserve it but we have to focus on Gods mercy more, it leads to a healthier society I believe, just think of Scandinavia and how decent most people are there and there is little fear of Hell in those countries and the criminal system there means you can receive massages and gardening lessons in jail.
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mrsdizzyd
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You’ve said this several times. You are twisting and mischaracterizing what people are saying.
No, we don’t think it is conditional. Not in the least. The difference between you and I is that I see eternal damnation as an act of perfect charity.
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Fauken
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We can focus on God’s mercy while acknowledging that there are prices to pay for rejecting it.
The same countries that have places for people to shoot up drugs and have an overwhelmingly high percentage of Atheists?
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oliver109
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There are negative aspects to Scandinavia but probably less than in America where the crime rate is clearly higher and prison sentences longer. There are prices to pay for rejecting Gods mercy but I don’t feel that anybody or at least most people commit mortal sins with the intention to sit in Hell for eternity. I don’t like committing mortal sins but I like to have the reassurance that should I commit them I will always be forgiven.
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Fauken
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They may have given up God but at least their prison sentences and crime rates are shorter and lower? Don’t you think that’s a mix up in priorities? What’s the point of having low crime rates and shorter prison times when you reject Love Itself?
They do. It’s horrible, but they do. That’s what mortal sin is.
Through confession, yes. And a perfect act of contrition if it’s not available. But we’re also supposed to try to stop. Just because the mercy is available doesn’t mean we can sin anyway, because God is merciful. That is the sin of presumption.
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oliver109
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We are to stop sinning and I agree with that but why can’t God do more to prevent a person from dying in a state of mortal sin like offering the soul to confess their sins to him before their soul is separated from the body? like imagine a priest who has died suddenly after having sex with a parishioner, why would God not allow that priest to ask him for forgiveness in the moment between the plane crashing on his house and his soul being separated from his body?
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Fauken
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I’ve think I’ve answered this question from you about four times now. Why do you assume that the fault of someone dying in a state of mortal sin is that of God’s and not that person? We are to be wise virgins waiting for our Lord with plenty of oil. We are to guard ourselves as we would against a thief coming in the night. We have been warned of this on multiple occasions.
God gives us literally every chance to come back to Him. If we haven’t when we die, we aren’t going to with another 5 minutes or even 50 years added to our clocks.
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oliver109
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I have still not received a satisfactory answer from anyone on this topic, the fault is on us but it would be nice if God could refuse to separate the sinful soul from a body should it “die” in the state of mortal sin. I don’t get the parable of the foolish and wise virgins, it is like God is penalising them for not being ready, why should they be condemned for not being ready? give them a million more chances, give them infinite chances, just don’t let them lose hope that they can repent. It is a bit like a small football club not being allowed to play a big team anymore because they will never be able to beat them even though the club and it’s fans always dream of the day they will beat them.
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Fauken
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You assume that God didn’t allow that person to die in the first place. Nothing happens to you without God at least passively permitting it. Including your own death.
Because they chose not to be ready. They knew the bridegroom was coming, there was nothing keeping them from bringing extra oil, but they decided not to. When they left to get more oil, they left knowing that the bridegroom might come in the time when they were away and did so anyway.
They had every chance to repent. They had every single one they needed and then some. They had every opportunity possible given to them, and they rejected it.
No. It’s like someone who never came to practice, never showed up to the games, never associated with the team beyond trash talking it, come up afterwards and demand a championship ring from that team when they win because they were “part of the team”.
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oliver109
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The foolish virgins chose not to be ready but when we choose to sin we should still be forgiven when we ask for forgiveness afterwards, instead of being kicked out of the wedding the virgins should have just asked to be forgiven for their silly mistake and all would have been right, agree?
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Fauken
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I can’t say that all would have been right, as I didn’t make the parable. What is at issue here isn’t what should happen to us when we sin and ask for forgiveness. What is at issue here is when someone chooses not to ask for that forgiveness or abuses it. Whether one is wise or foolish, we’re all waiting for the same thing. We don’t know when it will happen, but it will only happen once.
We have been told to trust in God’s mercy, but have been clearly warned not to be complacent and to always be ready. The bridegroom didn’t stop his procession because two were missing in the audience, instead, he continued onward.
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oliver109
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The issue is that the church has a too simplistic view of death and how it occurs, no one speaks about how it is completely possible for God to administer the sacrament of Reconciliation to a sinner in the moment between the bullet hitting their head and the soul being separated from their body.
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Gorgias
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Gee, I don’t know… maybe because that’s what Christ taught?
(To be fair, it’s our unforgiven mortal sins that cause us to lose salvation.)
If he repents? Nope. If he refuses to repent? Yep.
I agree. I think people want God, but on their own terms. Unfortunately, “my will be done” in place of “thy will be done” ends up landing you somewhere else than heaven…
Two thoughts:
- First, Jesus talks about this in the parable of Lazarus and the rich man. When the rich man makes the same request of Abraham, Jesus puts these words in Abraham’s mouth: “They have Moses and the prophets. Let them listen to them … If they will not listen to Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded if someone should rise from the dead.” So, Jesus is already covering this territory: if someone doesn’t want to follow God’s commandments, then they won’t be persuaded otherwise, even by otherworldly enducements.
- Second, if God “does more to prevent a person from dying in a state of mortal sin”, then it can’t really be said that He’s giving us a free will choice, can it? Instead, we’d have to say that God is forcing us – against our express will! – to choose Him! That would make Him a tyrant and a dictator, not a loving Father.
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Gorgias
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If he repents, then salvation is possible. If he dies without repenting… not so much. That’s what makes serious sin so horrifying – it brings the very real prospect of loss of salvation!!!
Yes. It would be “nice”.
God doesn’t ask for “nice”, though. He asks for virtue. He asks for obedience. He asks for love. Mortal sin is none of these.
Hang on a second – you’re moving the goalposts! Yes, when we are contrite and ask for forgiveness, we are forgiven. That’s not what we’re discussing here – we’re discussing the situation in which a person does not ask for forgiveness, and what the consequences for that situation are.
No. The point of the parable is that their whole job was to be ready. They knew it was their job. They accepted the responsibility. And then they failed to follow through on their commitment. Therefore, there were consequences for their failure to do what they’d promised to do.
Umm… God doesn’t “administer the sacrament of Reconciliation”. He forgives. And, if a person is contrite and asks for forgiveness, and has recourse to the sacrament, he is forgiven. (If he does not have recourse to the sacrament, then contrition is all that’s necessary.)
However, what doesn’t happen – inasmuch as we’ve been taught by God – is that God comes in that last millisecond to the unrepentant and forces them to repent. That’s a figment of your imagination.
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oliver109
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You misread what I was saying, God would never force someone to repent, what he could do is to offer a soul a chance to ask for forgiveness before he separates the soul from their body, God would not say “repent now if you don’t you will soon” he would say "would you like to be forgiven or would you prefer to walk away and sit in a dark room forever?
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Gorgias
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Isn’t threatening eternal punishment (or eternal “time-out”, if that’s how you conceive of it) essentially forcing a person to choose otherwise?
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oliver109
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Not at all, some people may have such a negative of God and the good that they would rather sit in a dark room forever, I heard on the news of a woman who found murder “moreish” like murdering was akin to eating a tasty ice cream, would that person want to be with God where murder can not take place?
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