Yes, in hell, but why forever

[oliver109]

Yes you have a point though in reality whatever God wants God gets, if he wants Sharon and Jason to be married Shanice and Jason will get married, if he wants a railroad to be built across the Sahara Desert a railroad will be built across the Sahara desert. This is without interfering with free will but the reality is that whatever God wants God gets, this does not mean we should be passive and have an anything goes attitude but at the same time it should give us comfort that the way things are is the way God intended things to be and to work on improving the future.

 

[OneSheep]

Good Morning!

But I think the higher order that we are asked by God to enter is a non-competitive, willing and working for the good of “the other.” This is the life lived in love, the life of Christ. The life of the saints.

Yes, Jesus calls us to the supernatural, to transcend our very nature. It involves being in touch with the Loving source underneath all that which seems like something less.

And, our consciences add a qualifier that all punishments must be proportionate to the crimes/offenses committed.

This is when our rational mind is engaged with the impulses coming from the gut. However, when the crowd hung Jesus, this rational proportionality was not engaged, even though their desires for justice were triggered. Arguably, the law allowing for blasphemy to be punishable by death was quite disproportional, but understandable in terms of human nature. Can you relate to it, “stand among” it?

Empathy-blockers do not lead to “thriving” as a human

Empathy being sometimes blocked leads to empathy itself surviving. Let’s say you have three tribes battling. Tribe 1 has empathy on, all the time, they want justice, but they are unable to inflict any harm because their empathy for the other is fully engaged. Tribe 2 has no empathy whatsoever, they are essentially a bunch of psychopaths. Tribe 3 has empathy on always, except when they see a threat, desire justice, or want something very badly. What happens? Tribe 2 easily slaughters Tribe 1, but eventually implodes in peace time because they cannot cooperate with each other. Tribe 3 also easily defeats tribe 1, and is even with Tribe 2 in battle. However, in the long run Tribe 3 is going to survive because empathy enhances cooperation.

It has been observed that chimpanzees also have this “empathy blocking” mechanism happening when they want justice. Thriving, in humans and species that rely on groups, happens through cooperation, and because individuals are naturally self-preferring, the group has to mete consequences that are effectively harmful to individuals in order to enact cooperative behavior. This is not a cynical look at our nature, it is all a very beautiful mechanism, and can be seen in other species.

And yet, we often enough go beyond this simplistic reading of our fellow men, don’t we? Our consciences work to move us beyond the simplistic read of “he is a bad man”…

Yes, with awareness and maturity, the conscience can be thus formed. Can you respect that people are not born with such awareness? Have you always been able to move beyond the simplistic, or do you sometimes “stay with” the negative affect, i.e. not able to understand the other’s POV and are in some way harmed by the other with that POV?

 

[goout]

These questions should always be viewed in relation to the good at hand.
Do you want eternal beatitude? If your answer is yes, that includes the possibility of the lack of it. The real possibility of eternal hell is so bad only because the real eternal heavenly beatitude is so good.
God is love, and love does not force. Love only exists in freedom, and freedom opens up responsibility.

 

[Gorgias]

though in reality whatever God wants God gets

Except that we don’t believe that God “makes” us do things that He wants to have done. You seem to be expressing the opinion that He does.

 

[Fauken]

There is a point in being nicer to your neighbour in that it makes things nicer for everyone

Why should I care if we’ll all be the same? What’s 80 years of a horrible life compared to an eternity of bliss in Heaven? They’ll be fine.

lets go back to Scandinavia again and compare it to society in Britain, there is less of a tradition of being selfless in Britain which means that people don’t want to pay as much tax and therefore social problems like homelessness and lower life expectancy are more common.

“Less tradition of being selfless”? Due to what? Scandinavia is so much nicer because they don’t believe in Hell, but England is not because they have less a tradition of being selfish? Both Scandinavia and England were Christian thought out history, and particularly Protestantism towards the last 500 years or so. They owe their morals to the same religion. So is it due to what they believe in now or what they used to believe in?

This is despite Britain being slightly more Catholic

Oh, that’s not hard. What part of Britian are you even talking about?

Why do you think people will become monsters just because they know God will offer them forgiveness and renewal every time?

You’re twisting my words. I’m not talking about people who try to live morally and ask for it. I’m talking about the mortal sin of presumption. And that’s precisely what your system allows. It’s the most logical thing to do.

Salvation is not earnt it is a gift and there have as you know been a lot of sinners in history who were saved at the last minute after a life of wickedness.

Salvation is not earnt it is a gift and there have as you know been a lot of sinners in history who were saved at the last minute after a life of wickedness.

They didn’t use their repentance at the last minute as an excuse to do whatever they wanted to in life. There were actually some people who waited until they were on their death beds to be baptized so they wouldn’t have to worry about going to confession during their lifetimes. Constantine is a notable example. So they lived their lives keeping themselves from the graces in the Eucharist, Confession, Confirmation, and even Baptism. Does that sound right to you?

 

[oliver109]

It is the case though that in Scandinavia despite having a Christian heritage still mostly believe in nothing after death, they have no fear of the afterlife, the same applies to Japan where people are very altruistic despite no Christian heritage. Britain is around 10% Catholic but I don’t find those Catholics are generally more moral than the rest of the population. Rather the rich are indeed more selfish it seems and less sympathetic to the plights of the poor. It seems that when you have a society with a smaller amount of very rich people like in Sweden or Denmark you have a society that is more equal, more just. Why is it presumption to hope and even believe that God will offer confession to every sinner just before they die? Is it presumptuous to go to Confession with the certainty that your sins will be forgiven and that if you die immediately afterwards you will not go to Hell?

 

[Aquinas11]

Why is it presumption to hope and even believe that God will offer confession to every sinner just before they die?

Because God told us otherwise - to ask for forgiveness before we die. And if he were to offer forgiveness to everyone after death, that contradicts what he told us.

 

[OneSheep]

Just for the sake of my own transparency, i should say that it was precisely when I was younger that I accepted a belief in a neverending, inescapable realm of torment and suffering. It was only as I got older, had children, lived more “life” among my friends, co-workers, family, and even strangers that my aversion to (what I’m calling) the “Augustinian Hell” increased.

So you begin by describing a god who loves/forgives/has mercy, conditionally. Got it.

My wife is a kindergarten teacher. Every day she is aiding children in the development and use of empathy. When empathy is not developed, it is the punishment (some form of consequence) that makes desired behavior happen. The consequence may be as subtle as a disapproving look from a usually very loving teacher. It is a look of non-acceptance.

And then we have in our society people who have had upbringings that stifled empathy, or may have been born with a predisposition where empathy is not part of the way the mind functions, such as in psychopaths. Our society arguably needs this “fall back” image of a conditionally loving God in order to keep these folks in check, they are operating from “only me”. What I see in the Gospel is that Jesus does not criticize or banish the idea of a conditionally-loving God, but instead endorses it, and above all invites us to “seek”, to “turn on the light”, to “love our enemies”, which are all part of moving beyond the default image.

There are numerous relationships within our lives that do not fit this picture, as you know. The most ready and obvious example is one’s own family…

In your family, at your state of awareness. Think of the movie Fiddler on the Roof, if the mother had been as (naturally) bigoted as the father, do you see that their family experience would be much different? Or take the movie Coco, I hope you saw it. There was a lot of conditional love happening there, and the situation was not resolved until there was greater understanding and a lot of conditions were met. These characters (though very real, and reflecting our nature) are to some degree unconscious, they are not in deep relationship with an unconditionally loving Divine Within.

It appears that what you are describing here is lower-level, evolutionary human life—the stuff of “survival.”

But we all share in this basic nature, do we not? And is not our nature, like that of all of God’s creatures, beautiful?

 

[oliver109]

How do we define death? lets get back to my priest analogy, the priest is having sex with a woman, a plane crashes on his house destroying his body leaving only bits of bone fragments and blood scattered over the house(just horrible to think about) now he is not dead yet, the soul is still attached to his remaining body parts and it is in these moments I believe that God can come to the priest and ask him if he would like to confess his sins and be forgiven, remember the priest is not dead yet so he can still choose to confess and ask for forgiveness or choose to walk away into Hell and remain there forever.

 

[goout]

How do we define death? lets get back to my priest analogy, the priest is having sex with a woman, a plane crashes on his house destroying his body leaving only bits of bone fragments and blood scattered over the house(just horrible to think about) now he is not dead yet, the soul is still attached to his remaining body parts and it is in these moments I believe that God can come to the priest and ask him if he would like to confess his sins and be forgiven, remember the priest is not dead yet so he can still choose to confess and ask for forgiveness or choose to walk away into Hell and remain there forever.

What about the Church in that moment?
You are envisioning an individual encounter between a person and God. But we live in community with one another, and are responsible to all others in and through God.
(which is why we confess to a human priest in persona Christi)

Your scenario is very mysterious for sure. The sure human response is to acknowledge and accept responsibility.

 

[Aquinas11]

he is not dead yet, the soul is still attached to his remaining body parts

doesn’t matter how you define “death”, since in both cases, the priest chose to engage in a sin , knowing that he may die before he opportunity to confess it. that is a risk we all assume whenever we engage in a mortal sin. you’re not guaranteed an opportunity to confess every sin. for this extreme example, your opportunity to avoid hell was to not engage in the sin in first place.

also you have to ask Why did God permit the plane to strike his house? Was it because God was sick and tired of him sinning? Sodom and Gomorrah comes to mind.

 

[oliver109]

Could God not provide a priest or a saint etc in that moment to give the sinful priest an opportunity to Confess, would it not be wonderful for the sinner to meet Padre Pio and discuss with him and Confess?

 

[goout]

Could God not provide a priest or a saint etc in that moment to give the sinful priest an opportunity to Confess, would it not be wonderful for the sinner to meet Padre Pio and discuss with him and Confess?

I dunno.
What I do know is…what I know. And I know that I am responsible for my choices, and responsible for my part in the Church, and responsible to God. And those things are all part of the whole.

You are asking questions without really attainable answers. We are human beings, we live in “the real”.

 

[Fauken]

It is the case though that in Scandinavia despite having a Christian heritage still mostly believe in nothing after death, they have no fear of the afterlife, the same applies to Japan where people are very altruistic despite no Christian heritage.

So two societies that deny Christianity have the common thread of rejecting the existence of Hell/the afterlife, which then causes them to be happy. And this is something to be celebrated. Am I understanding you correctly? Also, how do you define altruism in Japan?

Britain is around 10% Catholic but I don’t find those Catholics are generally more moral than the rest of the population.

And that is your opinion. Catholicism in general is suffering from a crisis of its members being loose with the Faith. Why should that be exceptional in Britain (what part?) where they were persecuted for centuries?

It seems that when you have a society with a smaller amount of very rich people like in Sweden or Denmark you have a society that is more equal, more just.

You realize that the reason that there are so few extremely wealthy people in Scandinavian countries is because their governments tax their incomes at 70%? Who in their right mind would stay there at a country who takes the Lion’s share of their earnings? Is that just? Is that fair?

Why is it presumption to hope and even believe that God will offer confession to every sinner just before they die

Because that’s not how salvation works. We are to run the race and be prepared, because our Master may show up at any minute, and we have been given every warning and opportunity to be ready before hand. If we aren’t, that’s due to our choice. Not a lack of effort on His part.

it presumptuous to go to Confession with the certainty that your sins will be forgiven and that if you die immediately afterwards you will not go to Hell?

No. Assuming of course it’s a valid confession.

 

[Aquinas11]

Could God not provide…

You see how the priests sin has now become God’s problem? Its now God’s responsibility , which is false

Also, why would God will or permit the plane to hit his house, after which God resorts to offering him confession? Makes no sense. God would have had plane hit the neighbors house not engaged in mortal sin, if his goal was for everyone to have chance to confess.

 

[goout]

As long as we are doing “what ifs”
What if our adulterer says to our Lord’s appeal “wait a sec, I want to complete my fling before I make a decision”?

Which in fact, our adulterer has been saying all along anyway with his choices. (add to that fact your hypothetical is a priest, and that makes his rebellion all the more decisive)

Christianity, above all, asks for a decision and response. And that response does’t happen by spontaneous momentary accident.

 

[oliver109]

I would not say we should celebrate a godless society being moral, rather we should celebrate a society being moral whether it believes in God or not. Japan has excellent welfare services, a long life expectancy and a low murder and rape rate, it is a country where people are well disciplined and with an honor culture where you do not break the law because you want to remain in favour with others but at the same time if you do break the law and go to jail you are less likely to be homeless on release than in Britain or the States. There is nothing wrong about having high taxes, the social services a great as are the benefits so theoretically you could be a car factory technician making $1000 a week, you get taxed for $600 of it but then you receive a $200 a week child welfare payment from the government as well as having free childcare and healthcare as well as subsidised housing. Why can’t God have mercy on the unprepared? as long as the priest is not saying to God that he does not want forgiveness I don’t see why God would not offer him forgiveness.

 

[JimG]

God has his own rehabilitation facility, which we call purgatory. But you still have to be willing to enter.

 

[oliver109]

Well God would then say to the adulterer “sin will never satisfy you the way that my love and my presence will, what you are doing is fruitless and destructive, it may feel good for now but it is not the way to do things to be happy in the long term, would you like to stop now and confess to me or if you want you do not have to say anything to me and make your own home in Hell?” the priest would then either say “yes father, you are right, what I was doing was foolish, it was unfruitful and it was not in your will” or “no father, I was loving every minute of it, I do not care about eternity or where I go after, I can have endless tears and boredom in Hell for 20 mins of sex, I just want the sex now and would rather forget about Heaven forever”

 

[OneSheep]

But if anything is obvious to me it’s that the life of love goes well beyond the survival game.

Yes, this is what we are invited to, to a life of prayer, “Seeing God in all things”, the Ignatian approach, seeing love where we before did not.

The “laying down of one’s life for his friends” is very much beyond the games of justice and competition. Mercy trumps justice, in a manner is speaking.

Yes, justice for its own sake is basically meaningless. Instead, justice that aims toward a society/world of mercy, which has the purpose of mercy is meaningful. We have the CCC clarifying this, essentially saying that punishment has the purpose of helping the perpetrator change his choices, change his ways. It is to be a merciful approach for the benefit of the sinner, not for others, even victims, to feel good about his “getting his due”, which is the impulse of our empathy-blocked nature when we witness or experience the harm done by the criminal.

God’s justice is mercy.

definitely affecting his ability to opine his own version of “original sin” and the human race as massa damnata.

In contrast, our doctrine now emphasizes the concept of human dignity. To me, part of that is in seeing the beauty of our nature, even the beauty of Augustine’s version as a natural conclusion based on his own human experience.

Yes, but they are fundamentally disanalogous with the Augustinian Hell with regard to duration and inescapability. If nothing else, physical death brings an end to any criminal sentence.

It sounds like we agree, though, that there is a human impulse to punish what we see as wrongdoing.

whatever are the gut impulses that we deal with, a human criminal court strives to go beyond this. It seeks to *be rational.

Rational, and ideally empathetic. The most rational justice comes from a position of understanding and forgiveness, if there had been any resentment. Then, the sentence will serve not only to protect society but rehabilitate the convict.