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Other_Eric
Guest
Hi Brad!
Which conflicting issues?
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Which conflicting issues?
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buffalo
Guest
Yeah, they should be in the risk pool like anyone else who chooses a high risk lifestyle.To go off on a different tangent, are the insurance companies going to start charging higher premiums for homosexuals?Smokers pay a higher premium, if they can get insurance, the overweight pay higher premiums…
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Other_Eric
Guest
Hi ChrisR246!To go off on a different tangent, are the insurance companies going to start charging higher premiums for homosexuals?
Smokers and the obese take a significant amount of time to develop the diseases they are subject to. The onset of the STDs normally contracted by a homosexual are lightning quick, and not likely to give the insurance company much time to accumulate payments before they must make payments on their extremely expensive therapies. Strictly speaking, they would not be insurable at all.
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buffalo
Guest
Other Eric:
See, they need the current PC climate to advance their agenda, an agenda that will have the rest of us paying for the consequences of their lifestyle. That is why the agenda has to be shutdown right now, before Congress makes a law forcing the insurance companies to cover them.
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fix
Guest
Other Eric:
Why is this theory bad? Many may choose homosexual conduct and lead a “gay” lifestyle. I cannot see this theory as incompatible with Catholic teaching? Not all passions are ordered toward the good. Some may have passions that lead them to want to choose “gay” conduct.
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Penny_Plain
Guest
“Gay obituaries”? The mind boggles.
I am not a scientist, but I do not think proper scientists base their conclusions on what they read in the mainstream media.
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Other_Eric
Guest
Hi fix!
This theory is bad because it expressly contradicts the Church’s teaching that homosexuality, separate from the sexual acts, is without sin. Homosexuality is now a condition that is freely and willfully chosen with full knowledge and gravely immoral. All the conditions infallibly set by the Magisterium for a mortal sin are thus met and the condition therefore becomes a sin. To have even a fleeting homosexual temptation is a sin because the conditions under which one would be subject to the temptation are in all cases chosen.
Therefore, salvation is not available to those who have a homosexual temptation. They must choose to be rid of it in the same way they *choose *to be subject to it. Not to make this choice and to persist in the temptation is obstinacy in sin which the Church defines as a sin against the Holy Spirit.
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fix
Guest
Other Eric:
You concluded all that from Cameron’s words?
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Other_Eric
Guest
Hi fix!
Cameron’s words and Church teaching. Yes.
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Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
Other Eric:
How does this work for you?
Homosexuality is a condition that is freely and willfully chosen but a person who has homosexual tendencies (or urges) is not a homosexual. A homosexual is one who indulges those tendencies (or urges).
Just as a person who has thought of theft is not a theive, who has thought of murder, is not a murder, who has thought of suicide, is not dead, who has thought of any number of sins yet is not guilty of any of them.
Eric,
How does this work for you?
Homosexuality is a condition that is freely and willfully chosen but a person who has homosexual tendencies (or urges) is not a homosexual. A homosexual is one who indulges those tendencies (or urges).
Just as a person who has thought of theft is not a theive, who has thought of murder, is not a murder, who has thought of suicide, is not dead, who has thought of any number of sins yet is not guilty of any of them.
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Other_Eric
Guest
Hi ByzCath!
I have a number of problems with this. If a man who experiences same-sex attractions is only a homosexual if he acts upon it, what is he if he doesn’t? Is his sexuality somehow less disordered? Does he cease to have the mental disorder that homosexuality is argued to be? Is an active homosexual only a homosexual at the point when he engages in the illicit sexual activity and something else when he is occupied with some other activity?
For Dr. Cameron, "homosexuality is about more than just sex – it is about rebelling against and trying to corrupt society, even as heterosexuality is about, for the most part, having and raising children. Homosexuality is also about coloring the world with SEX, regardless of the consequences. Its most prominent attitude is selfishness – getting what’s mine, what I deserve; getting back at all those who have hurt me, etc."
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Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
Other Eric:
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Jayson
Guest
I look at it this way. If I commit adultery, that is mortal sin and unless I repent and change my ways I stand a good chance of winding up in hell.
Disregarding the fact that a homosexual is gay, they are still having sex without being married to their sexual partner. Homosexuals can also never be married to other homosexuals in the eyes of God so unless they choose to abstain from homosexual sex altogether they will be committing sin, just as if a straight person decided to never marry but still have sex throughout their entire life without ever repenting.
Disregarding the fact that a homosexual is gay, they are still having sex without being married to their sexual partner. Homosexuals can also never be married to other homosexuals in the eyes of God so unless they choose to abstain from homosexual sex altogether they will be committing sin, just as if a straight person decided to never marry but still have sex throughout their entire life without ever repenting.
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Other_Eric
Guest
Hi ByzCath!
All I am doing is referring to the Church’s own criteria for defining a mortal sin, and applying the conclusions of Dr. Cameron to it. Dr. Cameron cannot be too far off the mark. In addition to having his research be uncritically accepted by faithful Catholics, it is cited in the tracts against homosexuality on catholic.com. For a sin to be mortal it must:
*]be objectively evil,
*]be committed with full knowledge of the evil,
*]and be freely and willfully chosen
If the condition of homosexuality meets all three of these conditions, then it is a mortal sin unless you mean to make a special exception in the case of a homosexual. Further, this has nothing to do with defining a man by his sexuality.
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Lisa_N
Guest
FWIW in this country the vast majority of AIDS is still transmitted through homosexual activity. The next group is IV drug users and while they may be straight, once again it’s a lifestyle disease, not something like MS that is simply bad luck of the draw.
Homosexuals die early not simply because of HIV. In addition their rates of mental illness, drug use and suicide are higher. They may engage in other risky behavior as well.
The blood supply has been cleaned up and with proper procedures women are less likely to pass on HIV to their babies. So it’s still a result of some kind of risky behavior.
Lisa N
Homosexuals die early not simply because of HIV. In addition their rates of mental illness, drug use and suicide are higher. They may engage in other risky behavior as well.
The blood supply has been cleaned up and with proper procedures women are less likely to pass on HIV to their babies. So it’s still a result of some kind of risky behavior.
Lisa N
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Mary_s_Lamb
Guest
Gay men also have a shorter life expectancy because of an extremely high risk for rectal and colon cancers.
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seeker63
Guest
Two questions for Other Eric–
Is a man with same sex attraction a homosexual if he, say, masturbates while thinking of another man or looking at pornography or something, or only if he engages in a sexual act with another man?
I know that in Rome they’ve been working on some documents about gay priests and that gay men should not be allowed to become priests, but should men with SSA who don’t act on those feelings enter the priesthood?
Is a man with same sex attraction a homosexual if he, say, masturbates while thinking of another man or looking at pornography or something, or only if he engages in a sexual act with another man?
I know that in Rome they’ve been working on some documents about gay priests and that gay men should not be allowed to become priests, but should men with SSA who don’t act on those feelings enter the priesthood?
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Other_Eric
Guest
Hi seeker63!
I think one does need to be careful when discussing the nature of homosexuality. The word “homosexual” does have the unfortunate effect defining a man entirely in terms of his sexual outlook. Though I have used it many rimes on this thread, I do so merely as shorthand for the phrase “person with same-sex attractions.” I think it would be safe to say that a man engaged in the activity you describe definitely suffers from homosexuality or same-sex attraction.
As for the issue of a person having same-sex attractions entering into the priesthood, my suspicion is that the forthcoming paper from the Vatican will deny the admission of any such person into Holy Orders. The reasons why have been discussed ad nauseum on these forums.
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fix
Guest
Other Eric:
Well, your conclusions do not make any sense. From what you have posted Cameron is saying many people choose to be homosexual. That is probably true in many cases. That does not mean they are denied salvation, unless they do not repent.
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Other_Eric
Guest
Hi fix!
Cameron is not saying that homosexuality is chosen in most cases. He’s saying that the very nature of homosexuality requires it to be definitively chosen in every case. He’s saying that this fact invalidates NARTH’s psychological model.
The corollary to this position is that homosexuals, as a group, are responsible for whatever sexual temptations they face as a result of their conscious, selfish decision to be a homosexual. The only way out is to make the conscious decision not to be a homosexual and it is a choice that can be made even without the aid of psychology.
So the decision to be subject to a homosexual temptation is completely within a man’s control as far as Dr. Cameron is concerned. A decision to remain in this state is a decision to choose a “tendency ordered toward an intrinsic moral evil” and therefore must be sinful. In sum: Only if you are straight are you saved if one is going to uncritically accept the twisted positions of Dr. Cameron.
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