Yet another thread on free will

[Robert_Sock]

When we see a child in our society being emotionally neglected, many of us feel deeply about that child, and we act with great empathy. But when that child grows older and becomes sexually promiscuous due to his or her emotional deprivation, we value the notion of free will so greatly and act as though the now grown person is fully responsible, and simply chose to become promiscuous.

As a psychologist who studied child development and child abuse for several years, I no longer can be a believer in free will in a stricter sense. Yes, there may be situations where are truly free to choose, by in large, we are products of our environment and genetic and spiritual makeup. The above is just one example.

 

[1Lord1Faith]

Are you throwing the baby out with the bath water? If not, I don’t understand what your point is.

Since when does the phrase free will have to be given with caveats and qualifiers.

 

[po18guy]

I have chosen not to read this thread.

 

[meltzerboy]

When we see a child in our society being emotionally neglected, many of us feel deeply about that child, and we act with great empathy. But when that child grows older and becomes sexually promiscuous due to his or her emotional deprivation, we value the notion of free will so greatly and act as though the now grown person is fully responsible, and simply chose to become promiscuous.

As a psychologist who studied child development and child abuse for several years, I no longer can be a believer in free will in a stricter sense. Yes, there may be situations where are truly free to choose, by in large, we are products of our environment and genetic and spiritual makeup. The above is just one example.

And yet you probably don’t believe in complete determinism either, whether biological determinism, psychosociocultural determinism, or behavioral determinism. Or do you? I think there is most likely a middle ground in which free will can be more limited for some than for others, but determinism does not rule anyone either. That is why we are forgiven our poor choices, since, although they are choices, they are accompanied by constraints, both internal and external.

 

[STT]

Neuroplasticity?

 

[seagal]

When we see a child in our society being emotionally neglected, many of us feel deeply about that child, and we act with great empathy. But when that child grows older and becomes sexually promiscuous due to his or her emotional deprivation, we value the notion of free will so greatly and act as though the now grown person is fully responsible, and simply chose to become promiscuous.

As a psychologist who studied child development and child abuse for several years, I no longer can be a believer in free will in a stricter sense. Yes, there may be situations where are truly free to choose, by in large, we are products of our environment and genetic and spiritual makeup. The above is just one example.

Are you saying that childhood trauma can never be overcome? That whatever we suffer as children has marked us forever and we can never rise above our suffering? That a person who as sexually abused has absolutely no choice but to go on and abuse others? Then what’s the point of psychiatrists and psychologists?

 

[LoyalViews]

But it still rests that even though someone might be living with the result of trauma, and acting out in a sinful way, they are still choosing to do it.

It’s like getting drunk. Unless you have a medical condition and get drunk off of a sip of wine, we can all choose to stop drinking before getting drunk.

 

[GEddie]

Are you throwing the baby out with the bath water? If not, I don’t understand what your point is.

Since when does the phrase free will have to be given with caveats and qualifiers.

I think we should admit that freedom as an absolute is a mirage.

“The will” is just as conditioned as the rest of our bodily being. There are some choices that we are inwardly not free to make. And the Church recognizes this in relation to its teaching on sin (it does not assume that every sin is committed in full freedom).

ICXC NIKA

 

[Robert_Sock]

And yet you probably don’t believe in complete determinism either, whether biological determinism, psychosociocultural determinism, or behavioral determinism. Or do you? I think there is most likely a middle ground in which free will can be more limited for some than for others, but determinism does not rule anyone either. That is why we are forgiven our poor choices, since, although they are choices, they are accompanied by constraints, both internal and external.

Yes, I do believe there is certain circumstance where a person does have free choice, but the older and “wiser” I become, free will becomes more and more of an illusion and that the other factors I mentioned play a much deeper role than I once thought. I know that free will is taken very seriously in Christianity and Judaism, but again, it’s far, far from what I’m now seeing as reality. For example, being religious seems to come about more from family tradition, believing it’s a norm that provides a person with a sense of being a part of a socially acceptable group, and spiritual experiences, then a person sitting down and trying to figure it out rationally, which simply cannot be done given our limited ability to truly reason both perspectives to the needed degree to make it a true conclusion or choice. Yes, many people claim they decided to become religious true their own reasoning, but I doubt that they came to that conclusion without spiritual influences that were their guiding light at either a conscious or unconscious level.

 

[e_c]

To the extent that a thing is rational, it is free. Our freedom is a participation in God’s freedom.

 

[Robert_Sock]

To the extent that a thing is rational, it is free. Our freedom is a participation in God’s freedom.

Along with my increasing doubt in true free will, I also have serious doubts about our being truly rational.

 

[AgnosticBoy]

When we see a child in our society being emotionally neglected, many of us feel deeply about that child, and we act with great empathy. But when that child grows older and becomes sexually promiscuous due to his or her emotional deprivation, we value the notion of free will so greatly and act as though the now grown person is fully responsible, and simply chose to become promiscuous.

As a psychologist who studied child development and child abuse for several years, I no longer can be a believer in free will in a stricter sense. Yes, there may be situations where are truly free to choose, by in large, we are products of our environment and genetic and spiritual makeup. The above is just one example.

There is too much room here for subjectivity between your premises and conclusion. Too many other factors can play a role. Secondly, I’d want to compare it to studies that deal with attempts to fix these types of issues in adulthood. I’ve heard of people from a wide range of backgrounds transforming their life for religion alone, why would that work for these people and not for people who fit your example? I’m a bit skeptical of your conclusion. unless there are strong biological factors involved here.

 

[AgnosticBoy]

There is too much room here for subjectivity between your premises and conclusion. Too many other factors can play a role. Secondly, I’d want to compare it to studies that deal with attempts to fix these types of issues in adulthood. I’ve heard of people from a wide range of backgrounds transforming their life for religion alone, why would that work for these people and not for people who fit your example? I’m a bit skeptical of your conclusion. unless there are strong biological factors involved here.

 

[e_c]

Along with my increasing doubt in true free will, I also have serious doubts about our being truly rational.

Then perhaps that is the problem. The mind is able to grasp something beyond the particular - the universal. A law outside of one’s urges toward particular things is able to be adhered to.

Our temperaments, development, and genetics shape our urges to a large degree. They do not determine our adherence to the universal moral law - that is not within the scope of their object, which is the particular.

 

[Wesrock]

When we see a child in our society being emotionally neglected, many of us feel deeply about that child, and we act with great empathy. But when that child grows older and becomes sexually promiscuous due to his or her emotional deprivation, we value the notion of free will so greatly and act as though the now grown person is fully responsible, and simply chose to become promiscuous.

All I can say is that I’m reminded of the BBC’s Father Brown show. Disregarding the show’s imperfections, what your post brings to mind is how Father Brown identifies the background and trauma behind people’s sins. In those stories, the crime almost always stem from some type of “brokenness” or trauma in the sinner’s past. It’s not just out-of-the-blue coldly reasoned crime. Father Brown generally “solves” the case and identifies the motive by perceiving the past traumas and empathizing with the frailty of human nature such that he understands the thinking of the culprit (and the past hurt they carry). He’s not interested in the legal aspects so much as he wishes to heal that past trauma and reconcile the sinner with the Church. It’s recognizing our brokenness, and seeing the Church’s role as a physician and **not **a condemner or judge. (Not EVERY episode of the TV show follows this logic, but it’s a recurring motif)

This doesn’t instantly absolve a sinner of all responsibility, though certainly there’s a difference between grave matter and mortal sin which must also be accounted for, but I think you mistake the Church’s role in the matter, and with how the Church sees original sin and freedom of will.

 

[Robert_Sock]

There is too much room here for subjectivity between your premises and conclusion. Too many other factors can play a role. Secondly, I’d want to compare it to studies that deal with attempts to fix these types of issues in adulthood. I’ve heard of people from a wide range of backgrounds transforming their life for religion alone, why would that work for these people and not for people who fit your example? I’m a bit skeptical of your conclusion. unless there are strong biological factors involved here.

You did not choose Me, but I chose you
-John 15:16

The choice may feel like it was our choice but in reality, it is always Christ who chooses us. Yes, there may be some free will involved, like our accepting the invitation, but free will remains minimal.

 

[Wesrock]

You did not choose Me, but I chose you
-John 15:16

The choice may feel like it was our choice but in reality, it is always Christ who chooses us. Yes, there may be some free will involved, like our accepting the invitation, but free will remains minimal.

Why do you say it’s “minimal”?

 

[Robert_Sock]

Why do you say it’s “minimal”?

It’s really the unconscious spiritual forces that decide.

 

[AgnosticBoy]

**You did not choose Me, but I chose you
-John 15:16

The choice may feel like it was our choice but in reality, it is always Christ who chooses us.** Yes, there may be some free will involved, like our accepting the invitation, but free will remains minimal.

Are you happy with actually knowing that you have no choice when it comes to being saved by God?! In my view, I find it odd that someone would not want to give us a choice but then give us the ability to be aware of that. You would think that if someone knew that they were being controlled by another, then that person would begin to resist it.

In the same way, one predominant view is that human behavior is a product of environment and biology. We’re very much aware of this and the factors that affect our behavior. And therefore, by knowing what controls us, we may then begin to resist those controls and develop the ability to control those factors (biology and environment) to our liking. And yes, there is plenty of scientifically empirical evidence showing that we can control our environment and biology and we’re becoming increasingly better at doing it. Of course, we can use that to change our behavior!! STT also alluded to “neuroplasticity” earlier!

 

[Robert_Sock]

Are you happy with actually knowing that you have no choice when it comes to being saved by God?! In my view, I find it odd that someone would not want to give us a choice but then give us the ability to be aware of that. You would think that if someone knew that they were being controlled by another, then that person would begin to resist it.

In the same way, one predominant view is that human behavior is a product of environment and biology. We’re very much aware of this and the factors that affect our behavior. And therefore, by knowing what controls us, we may then begin to resist those controls and develop the ability to control those factors (biology and environment) to our liking. And yes, there is plenty of scientifically empirical evidence showing that we can control our environment and biology and we’re becoming increasingly better at doing it. Of course, we can use that to change our behavior!! STT also alluded to “neuroplasticity” earlier!

It’s not that we either have a complete free will or no free will! All I’m trying to suggest in this thread is that our free will is much smaller than most philosophers are too proud to admit!