YOGA...ooer!

[friardchips]

From Friardcips:

Good Evening Friardchips: I have read a good many accounts of Catholic Saints being confronted and even assaulted by demons, but have not read an account of yogis having this problem. Which begs the question as to which practice might more aptly conjure one up - being a really good Catholic, or being a yogi.

Hi Gary.

The reason saints were attacked were because they were close to God. They chose to accept torments on his behalf in order to share deeper in Christ’s passion.

If one never feels anything troubling, this in fact is troubling, I believe. Reason being, that Satan troubles those who he sees as a threat. That is not to say that happiness is bad though. The saints although often under siege were at peace, joyful, and at times ecstatic when God Willed it to grant them consolation. This is not to say that we should invite such things but to endure and fight with prayer. There is also a difference between God allowing us to suffer certain torments and us bringing them on ourselves, although this can still be offered up after we’ve been reconciled back to God.

We are in fact THE religion that has special ranks of the clergy to deal with such things, and remedies are usually applied in the places where the problem is, not somewhere else. For instance, I would imagine that there aren’t a lot of air conditioners in Greenland,…

…and likewise I have never visited a yoga studio with an exorcist.

I imagine you never will.

So to turn what you said the other way around, if I were to invite a Hindu to join me at mass, what assurances can I honestly give them about such things?

You wouldn’t have to. Jesus, the Son of God, second person of the Holy Trinity died for our sins. This spoke for itself. And it would depend on why you asked him.

Relativism is a dangerous threat to institutions and people who have a psychological need for assuredness with regard to what they have been taught. The odd thing is that relativism is often held on this forum to be a threat to truth, when in fact relativism is the truth. If, as the human race moves forward, our faith tradition wants to remain relevant, we had better come to terms with relativism. Because the world we live in is relative by nature. Up is only up relative to down, and there is no front without a back. Likewise, a fish has no concept of water until it has been out of the water. Most everything is known only in contrast to its opposite and the gradations between extremes. If we have something to fear in relativism, it could only mean that we don’t have the real deal. Because the real deal can take whatever you throw at it. If we have the truth, it won’t be threatened by other truths. As a Catholic, I would like to be taken seriously by other modern humans, so I have no fear of relativism.

All the best,
Gary

I’m not getting into this now but to say that I enjoyed reading this paragraph and post. In short, there is a line between recognising that things are relative to experience and bringing this into our own practice of the faith. Our faith life has purpose - to get to Heaven - and if we can be signs of love in the world then God might bring others to Him also through us. But our faith will only be as a light on a table in the darkness if we hold fast to the Truth we have been taught and the ways to do this. This doesn’t mean believing all sorts of things for the sake of it, but of walking the narrow path, and caring for others. I believe that to care, can consist of guiding others, if what they are doing lacks a certain education of what might be advisable in one area or another. Being there but not being of. In the world but not of the world. In the U.K on some levels of thinking there is a saying which goes: “Each to their own”. I can’t stand this. It is lazy. It is relativism. A humanist says: “I believe in pro choice, not pro life, as only this makes me fully human”. I’d answer that to follow the narrow path makes us fully human, because only God knows all that is, what was, and what will be, not confined to the boundaries of time, so by submitting ourselves to His Holy Will, we are putting ourselves into the hands of the Author of life itself who can make us who we really are, in Him, the eternal God. This way, my choice is open to education in the freest way possible, so free ,it is possible only for God to achieve, because for God, all things are possible.

Enjoy the rest of your day.

F.C

 

[Michael_Mayo]

Hi Michael,

He is saying that Yoga and Zen does not lead to finding God (it leads to nothing or something other than God, IOW). And I could do a course on the catechism and not seek the Holy Spirit and all this will achieve is knowledge for the memory like reading an encyclopedia, because with no holy communion or Christian prayer, just a course on its own would not help me to meet God.

He is really saying that we need to pray Christian prayers to the Holy Spirit for guidance and be open to listening out for Him.

Have a nice day!

I agree. And yoga stretches can be Christian prayer. I know because for me it is.

Not yoga philosophy but yoga stretches and postures. The philosophy utilizes the stretches. But they can be utilized in any philosophy or theology. They belong to the body not the philosophy.

The Pope is saying that Yoga, Zen and even catechesis or any intellectual study ALONE cannot give you freedom. Only the Holy Spirit. Zen is more of a lifestyle and world view with its origin in Buddhism. But what we can appreciate in it is a greater sense of awareness of the present moment and the Holy Spirit in it and what a gift it is. And we can appreciate its method of meditation which is very similar to Hesychasm. We do not have to reject Christ to appreciate these assets. In fact they can help us better to recognize Christ who is with us all the time.

 

[friardchips]

I agree. And yoga stretches can be Christian prayer. I know because for me it is.

Hi. Not saying it isn’t for you.

Not yoga philosophy but yoga stretches and postures. The philosophy utilizes the stretches. But they can be utilized in any philosophy or theology. They belong to the body not the philosophy.

This is our line of difference, Michael. -I think the body postures carry the spiritual memory, the history, of the intentions behind doing the body postures. I am thinking in terms of communication symbols e.g:- a dance. When we see any thought out dance, without words, it still portrays and reflects a narrative.

The Pope is saying that Yoga, Zen and even catechesis or any intellectual study ALONE cannot give you freedom. Only the Holy Spirit. Zen is more of a lifestyle and world view with its origin in Buddhism. But what we can appreciate in it is a greater sense of awareness of the present moment and the Holy Spirit in it and what a gift it is. And we can appreciate its method of meditation which is very similar to Hesychasm. We do not have to reject Christ to appreciate these assets. In fact they can help us better to recognize Christ who is with us all the time.

I might not agree with you entirely but I like the positive attitude your post indicates.

I don’t think he said “alone”. If he had said this then 26 pages ago this thread would not have begun.

I don’t know about “better”. I remain sceptical for this and other reasons. But it is not about my opinion, your life is your journey.

Let me ask you a question: would you spend one week every day praying the rosary if that is all the time you could afford for meditation or would you spend one week every day doing Yoga? Because I can see why God might bring people closer to him who do not recognise or who have not heard of Jesus through some more abstract means of worship due to His bountiful mercy but I cannot see why people who have been given everything they firmly need well within the Catholic Christian faith have to look outside it for extra sustenance - isn’t this going backwards?

Peace be with you.

 

[friardchips]

As I understand it (from many conversations with many Catholics whose interpretations of the Faith, frankly, I trust more than I do yours), what is required with regard to statements such as that one is “docility,” not necessarily submission.

‘Docility’ is word worthy of reflection and something to ponder over, for the rest of Lent maybe, so I thank you for this word.

 

[Michael_Mayo]

This is our line of difference, Michael. -I think the body postures carry the spiritual memory, the history, of the intentions behind doing the body postures. I am thinking in terms of communication symbols e.g:- a dance. When we see any thought out dance, without words, it still portrays and reflects a narrative.

By spiritual memory do you mean like a reflex evolution has created in the human species? I don’t understand how else the body can know or effect a meaning the individual person does not intend.

I don’t think he said “alone”. If he had said this then 26 pages ago this thread would not have begun.

We do know he meant without the Holy Spirit and that included catechesis and spiritual classes.

Let me ask you a question: would you spend one week every day praying the rosary if that is all the time you could afford for meditation or would you spend one week every day doing Yoga? Because I can see why God might bring people closer to him who do not recognize or who have not heard of Jesus through some more abstract means of worship due to His bountiful mercy but I cannot see why people who have been given everything they firmly need well within the Catholic Christian faith have to look outside it for extra sustenance - isn’t this going backwards?

Peace be with you.

They each engage us in two very different ways. I would still do both perhaps in alternation. But then my relationship with the Blessed Mother is not dependent on the Rosary. That is not the primary way I venerate her. I was born on February 11, Feast of Our Lady of Lourdes. And I work in healthcare so I pray a different prayer:

Act of Consecration

Holy Mary Mother of God, Virgin Immaculate,
you appeared eighteen times to Bernadette
at the Grotto in Lourdes,
to remind Christians
of what the truths in the Gospel require of them.
You called them to prayer, penance,
the Eucharist and life in the Church.

To answer your call more fully,
I consecrate myself through you to your Son, Jesus.

Make me willing to accept what he said.
By the fervour of my faith,
by the conduct of my life in all its aspects,
by my devotion to the sick,
let me work with you
in the comforting of those who suffer
and in the reconciliation of people,
that the Church may be One,
and that there may be peace in the world.

All this I ask, confident that you,
Our Lady, will fully answer my prayer.

Blessed be the holy and Immaculate Conception
of the Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of God.

Our Lady of Lourdes, pray for us.
St Bernadette pray for us.

As for “…have to look outside it for extra sustenance - isn’t this going backwards?”

Do you take walks? Maybe work out a bit? Watch what you eat? Can’t it all be part of our spiritual life. It is not going “backwards” it is going forwards in all aspects of life.

 

[friardchips]

By spiritual memory do you mean like a reflex evolution has created in the human species? .

Hi. Not sure if memory is anything but spiritual, come to think of it.

I don’t understand how else the body can know or effect a meaning the individual person does not intend.

This is a thread in itself. There is something interesting about the memory of a species and the link with telekinetic communication. For example, horses have a memory of mistreatment apparently - do they sneak a preview of Horse and Hound when their owners are not looking; the way whales and dolphins can communicate across oceans; the way one cat comes in for food and suddenly the whole of the neighbourhood cat community has heard the news (evidently), and the way they sense a happy home; the way Scripture can be meditated and pondered over and greater and greater depths be revealed and how this knowledge has been passed over from one era to the next for two thousand years, and before Jesus was born too in the Hebrew Scriptures - yet the individual doesn’t make that possible encounter happen; original sin; the mark of Christ in Baptism; genetics; curses possibly; etc…there are various ways that things can be passed on, or granted, without individual intent!

We do know he meant without the Holy Spirit and that included catechesis and spiritual classes.

Catechesis is a course of theory-learning only not a spiritual journey, like a history or English class, but Yoga is thought of as a spiritual practice. So is he not saying that to do Catechism classes on their own is as fruitless as doing any form of Yoga for spiritual reasons or being into Zen practices. But what you are suggesting is that he is not referring to Yoga when including prayers to the Holy Spirit at the same time, right?

They each engage us in two very different ways. I would still do both perhaps in alternation. But then my relationship with the Blessed Mother is not dependent on the Rosary. That is not the primary way I venerate her. I was born on February 11, Feast of Our Lady of Lourdes. And I work in healthcare so I pray a different prayer:

Act of Consecration

Holy Mary Mother of God, Virgin Immaculate,
you appeared eighteen times to Bernadette
at the Grotto in Lourdes,
to remind Christians
of what the truths in the Gospel require of them.
You called them to prayer, penance,
the Eucharist and life in the Church.

To answer your call more fully,
I consecrate myself through you to your Son, Jesus.

Make me willing to accept what he said.
By the fervour of my faith,
by the conduct of my life in all its aspects,
by my devotion to the sick,
let me work with you
in the comforting of those who suffer
and in the reconciliation of people,
that the Church may be One,
and that there may be peace in the world.

All this I ask, confident that you,
Our Lady, will fully answer my prayer.

Blessed be the holy and Immaculate Conception
of the Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of God.

Our Lady of Lourdes, pray for us.
St Bernadette pray for us.

Awesome day to be born! Wonderful prayer! Thank you for sharing this.

As for “…have to look outside it for extra sustenance - isn’t this going backwards?”

Do you take walks? Maybe work out a bit? Watch what you eat? Can’t it all be part of our spiritual life. It is not going “backwards” it is going forwards in all aspects of life.

It can. However, I’d have Yoga down as something more involved than simply leisure or an activity.

With all due respect though, your post makes me laugh, not in mockery, but the fact that you were born on the Feast Day of Our Lady of Lourdes and yet don’t pray the Rosary!!! I mean to say, do you not think there has ever been a greater sign or pointer or nudge that this might be a healthy thing for you to do?!

:harp::yup:

 

[Michael_Mayo]

I do also pray the Rosary, which of course, goes back to St Dominic in 1214. Prior to that the only use of beads in prayer was pagan. Hindu and Buddhist use of prayer beads go back much further…Hindu usage goes to B.C. times. So even The Blessed Virgin saw no problem in taking a pagan method of prayer and adapting to Christian usage. So why do you have such a problem with yoga? I just don’t understand.

 

[SyroMalankara]

I do also pray the Rosary, which of course, goes back to St Dominic in 1214. Prior to that the only use of beads in prayer was pagan. Hindu and Buddhist use of prayer beads go back much further…Hindu usage goes to B.C. times. So even The Blessed Virgin saw no problem in taking a pagan method of prayer and adapting to Christian usage. So why do you have such a problem with yoga? I just don’t understand.

Yes, St. Dominic’s rosary goes to 1214. Eastern Christians have used beads for prayer well before that, so no, it’s not directly related to Hindu or Buddhist practice. More likely from a semitic Christian monastic custom.

 

[Michael_Mayo]

Yes, St. Dominic’s rosary goes to 1214. Eastern Christians have used beads for prayer well before that, so no, it’s not directly related to Hindu or Buddhist practice. More likely from a semitic Christian monastic custom.

Possibly so but Hindu practice still predates that.

 

[friardchips]

I do also pray the Rosary, which of course, goes back to St Dominic in 1214. Prior to that the only use of beads in prayer was pagan. Hindu and Buddhist use of prayer beads go back much further…Hindu usage goes to B.C. times. So even The Blessed Virgin saw no problem in taking a pagan method of prayer and adapting to Christian usage. So why do you have such a problem with yoga? I just don’t understand.

Yes, St. Dominic’s rosary goes to 1214. Eastern Christians have used beads for prayer well before that, so no, it’s not directly related to Hindu or Buddhist practice. More likely from a semitic Christian monastic custom.

Possibly so but Hindu practice still predates that.

This was a topic brought up in a previous post. It is not that the use of beads is Pagan, it is the case that all things return to Christ, and so find their rightful place in Him.

The difference is that Our Lady blessed the Rosary herself and put the beads in their rightful place so we know this was a blessing by God and that the beads were always meant for this as God brings meaning to life as He intended it to be.

I find it sad that your post suggest Yoga and The Holy Rosary to be on equal standing. :sad_yes:

 

[Michael_Mayo]

My point was that just because something predates Christianity and is found in another culture and another religion we do not need to reject it as you yourself said so well, “it is the case that all things return to Christ, and so find their rightful place in Him.”

 

[friardchips]

However, Michael, in the spirit of goodwill I do respect that you have your own opinions and do understand your thinking, and empathise even, though I do not agree your reasoning. Best wishes.

 

[friardchips]

My point was that just because something predates Christianity and is found in another culture and another religion we do not need to reject it as you yourself said so well, “it is the case that all things return to Christ, and so find their rightful place in Him.”

Okay, now you’re talking, you have my attention again…and so: what is your solution?

 

[Michael_Mayo]

Okay, now you’re talking, you have my attention again…and so: what is your solution?

My solution is to not be prejudiced about what seems unfamiliar, strange or foreign to me. Christ holds all things together in himself and every good thing comes from the Lord

Yoga streches, not yoga philosophy, can be good for body, mind, and spirit. I have posted many links to actual scientific studies that indicate this. It is not hunch, opinion, speculation or superstition to make that statement. How do we tell the good fron the bad? By the fruits:

Galatians Chapter 5
Now the works of the flesh are obvious: immorality, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, hatreds, rivalry, jealousy, outbursts of fury, acts of selfishness, dissensions, factions, occasions of envy, drinking bouts, orgies, and the like.

I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

In contrast, the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.

Now those who belong to Christ [Jesus] have crucified their flesh with its passions and desires. If we live in the Spirit, let us also follow the Spirit. Let us not be conceited, provoking one another, envious of one another.

To those fruits may I also add health, balance, refreshment and emotional stability.

 

[friardchips]

My solution is to not be prejudiced about what seems unfamiliar, strange or foreign to me. Christ holds all things together in himself and every good thing comes from the Lord

Yoga streches, not yoga philosophy, can be good for body, mind, and spirit. I have posted many links to actual scientific studies that indicate this. It is not hunch, opinion, speculation or superstition to make that statement. How do we tell the good fron the bad? By the fruits:

Galatians Chapter 5
Now the works of the flesh are obvious: immorality, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, hatreds, rivalry, jealousy, outbursts of fury, acts of selfishness, dissensions, factions, occasions of envy, drinking bouts, orgies, and the like.

I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

In contrast, the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.

Now those who belong to Christ [Jesus] have crucified their flesh with its passions and desires. If we live in the Spirit, let us also follow the Spirit. Let us not be conceited, provoking one another, envious of one another.

Not a bad answer, to be honest. However: ‘…idolatry, sorcery,…’…hmm?!

To those fruits may I also add health, balance, refreshment and emotional stability.

That, is cheating!

 

[friardchips]

To those fruits may I also add health, balance, refreshment and emotional stability.

“…February 11, Feast of Our Lady of Lourdes…”The Most Holy Rosary of the Blessed Virgin Mary!

 

[Michael_Mayo]

“…February 11, Feast of Our Lady of Lourdes…”The Most Holy Rosary of the Blessed Virgin Mary!

What do you find funny?

 

[agnes_therese]

What do you find funny?

Interesting. He accuses others of opening themselves to demonic influences, but his reaction to the holy rosary is rotfl?

 

[friardchips]

Interesting. He accuses others of opening themselves to demonic influences, but his reaction to the holy rosary is rotfl?

Underhand tactics (Agnestherese!) :dts: - to purposely misinterpret my post to MM.

I am advocating the rosary not laughing at it (as you well know).

I am saying, and if you had followed the posts, as is the polite thing to do, you would have seen that I am encouraging the Rosary due to the fact that a strong link such as being born on the day of Our Lady’s Lourdes Feast day would be enough for most people to make this their absolute and indispensable form of communication.

If you have nothing positive to offer this thread then why post on it?

The words in big are so you don’t make that mistake again.

 

[friardchips]

“…February 11, Feast of Our Lady of Lourdes…”The Most Holy Rosary of the Blessed Virgin Mary!

For the ones with less than good intent, and for the sake of peace, I’ll repost:

‘…February 11, Feast of Our Lady of Lourdes…’ The Most Holy Rosary of the Blessed Virgin Mary.