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friardchips
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Yes, but since the birth of Our Lord, we know where all this informaton belongs. Unless you think that Plato was not a human being created by the Creator whom Christians believe has revealed Himself to?
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friardchips
Guest
On the contrary, you have ignored my frequent responses to that particular question. So, because you can’t evidently be bothered to return the same courtesy by answering me, as I have shown you by answering you, then I have no obligation to respond in further communication with you, until you decide to do so. For the record.
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friardchips
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Because, I have already answered that question before. Nevertheless, here we go again:
Personal stories are welcome and I’m not going to attempt assessments of any so-called experiences because it would be wrong, and invasive, to do so.
Obviously, posters who argue for Yoga are probably going to be people who do Yoga, or have done Yoga, so if you post on a thread that is sceptical of the practice, then you have the choice in advance to decide whether you are going to either post courteous comments in acceptance of the fact that there’ll be opposition, or, avoid the thread. Because this thread is discussing objectively the subject as a whole, which is my right to do so, rather than being an emotional appeal arguing either way. Unless you think we should live in a totalitarian state where nothing can be discussed freely?
Whether your post is valid largely depends on whether you post a constructive comment respecting the OP’s (in this case, me) request for objective argument or whether you choose to be offended by arguments every single time which are not aimed at individuals and then proceed to post destructive comments aimed at ridiculing my intentions.
The choice, yet again, as always, is yours.
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faithsmind
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Yes, I see what you are saying and I don’t disagree with it.
For me, there was certainly a spiritual atmosphere at my formal yoga class. I inserted my own prayers where the teacher would offer mental visualizations.
But I still had a block during that period (not exactly during the classes)… it’s hard for me to describe. I think it’s interesting how you mention that Catholicism has incorporated other cultural customs and given their own spiritual meaning. So, perhaps a Christian class with these postures would be a very good thing. The Catholic understanding of the body’s role may even incorporate well within this and may be a wonderful way to evangelize. At the same time, many postures are indecent, especially for a male/female class. God bless you all!
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faithsmind
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I mean, look what we Christianity did with Crucifixion. We OWN it now.
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Michael_Mayo
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Plato was a pagan just like whoever it was that developed yoga.
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friardchips
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Not sure what that has to do with it?
What’s your point?
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friardchips
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…and also, pro-Yoga posts are valid, when someone cites a reference from a non-Christian or ‘Christian’ source, if it is at least of a certifiably educated and trustworthy (sometimes hard to tell) source, and when used to compare/measure up against Catholic understanding. As this is a thread approaching the subject from a Catholic start-point this is necessary or else the dialogue fails to go anywhere. Because, this is not Yahoo Answers, it is apparently a Catholic forum!
I also believe that when people post very personal stories, as a few have, for or against or neutral, then these stories are to be respected as any stories of more personal matter should be respected.
I hope this helps.
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Michael_Mayo
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My point is that many things have been adopted by Catholics that have non-Christian roots or sources.Not sure what that has to do with it?
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sunnyyy
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I’m sure you would find that a lot of common practices these days are “un-Christian.” I don’t do yoga for any spiritual reason other than to connect with and really get into myself. It feels good and it is spiritually healthy. Is that so terrible?
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Michael_Mayo
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For me it is more like getting out of myself because the stretches help my body to relax by releasing tensions even as my mind is still alert. Then I can sit still forget my body and focus more clearly God.
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agnes_therese
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Exactly!
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friardchips
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Hi. Thanks for the post! What do you mean by “spiritually healthy”? It is not a moral bad, no. I don’t think so. No one has said it is sinful. Not on here and not in the Church.
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friardchips
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What is the point behind ‘forgetting one’s body’ though? Does our Creator expect us to forget our bodies or leave behind our minds or control our wills with some form of self-hypnosis? I don’t remember reading that in the Bible. And “focussing” on our Creator sounds more like an IQ test than a personal encounter. I thought it was about leaving our hearts open for Him and Him doing the rest. I thought it was He who has the power to help us be more aware of Him and others, in prayer, and in practice, usually over time?!Exactly!
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Michael_Mayo
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It is about attention. The body can be a distraction at times even as it is still a great gift. It requires discipline perhaps even asceticism which can be penance. Where do you get “leave behind our minds” and “self hypnosis”? You wouldn’t call the repetition of the Hail Mary that would you? Or just sitting quietly attentive in the adoration chapel? How else can you leave your heart open? Why put such a harsh judgement on such simple words? A personal encounter requires focus. I am surprised you do not know that. How can you be fully present to someone without focusing your attention on them?
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friardchips
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Yes, but all things make their way back to our Creator. So it is not that Catholics adopted them, but that the Holy Spirit inspired the usage of these external practices for worship in the whole Truth, after our Creator walked this earth, because although they may have been used in Pagan rituals beforehand, were always meant for Christianity eventually, because it is Christianity which recognises the whole Truth, and through which all things find their rightful place.
In furthering this line of argument, and to also put some response in to a question to someone earlier, about whether Yoga, using this reasoning, could also be something that finds its way back to Christianity - in some understanding that this might be the rightful place for Yoga too - after years of being misappropriated for use in another ‘religion’ beforehand. I think this is a valid argument, except that Yoga philosophy does not fall in with Christian understanding, even at basic, narrow, philosophy level. In terms of whether Yoga could simply be used for exercise or to calm down before Christian prayer - the use of Yoga then being set in its rightful place in Christianity - sounds as if it is a bit of a stretch (pun, accidental!) to say the least. For the reason that, if it is as innocent as all that, then why is it still called Yoga? Why does it seem to incorporate a spiritual aspect in classes? Many posters here have suggested that classes do feature spiritual teaching. Now you have said that private Yoga can be different. That is a valid argument because then you are more able to direct it away from negligent teaching or unknowns but it still has the linkage to what has gone before because it is still Yoga! So those moves were constructed, or devised for a reason, which was not to do with Christian sprituality originally but was intended for a different sprituality of sorts. So it remains an unknown. Also, as another poster metnioned, some of the poses are indecent. So how can this be reconciled with preparation for humble Christian prayer?
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Michael_Mayo
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So call it something else and don’t do the poses you would find “indecent”.
As Danish gymnastics showed, spirituality need not have anything to do with it.
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friardchips
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It is not a judgement. Seriously, you peeps need to look up ‘judgement’ in the dictionary. If you are having to overly focus your mind then this could be a form of self-hypnosis. A bit like hyper-ventilation for breathing and body could be working oneself into a self-induced ecstatic high. Ascetism is not about making the body feel good. And not really about prayer, directly. Ascetism is about the things around prayer to make one disciplined generally in one’s life that indirectly helps prayer. Sure, not giving in to distractions is part of that help.It is about attention. The body can be a distraction at times even as it is still a great gift. It requires discipline perhaps even asceticism which can be penance. Where do you get “leave behind our minds” and “self hypnosis”? You wouldn’t call the repetition of the Hail Mary that would you? Or just sitting quietly attentive in the adoration chapel? How else can you leave your heart open? Why put such a harsh judgement on such simple words? A personal encounter requires focus. I am surprised you do not know that. How can you be fully present to someone without focusing your attention on them?
A Hail Mary takes quiet and some imagination. The Rosary is not about a rhythm, it is not about a high, it is not about the body achieving anything, or the mind, it is about pondering. Our Creator is with us in that. Consolation or no consolation. Even dryness. This is a part of the relationship too. A personal encounter does not require focus. I used to use that word but it is too aggressive. I think of focus for the army or to be a company director or something. It is not. It is about simply sitting and being with. Maybe you find this is good for you. Okay, whatever works for you. But this is not true for prayer generally. To force distractions away in an overly exaggerated display is giving power to the distractions. What is wrong with simply having some trust in the prayer and asking the Holy Spirit to help you in the midst of distraction adn allow Him to provide guidance.
I actually respect your hard work in prayer and think it is admirable. I can’t help feeling though, and this is not an insult but a compliment, that this much physical effort is not probably needed. And I don’t just mean with Yoga here. You spoke of a “rebirth” earlier. I am not sure about the word but I get what you mean. And I do think these experiences are real. But I think giving too much power to the physical aspect over and above putting one’s hands together is not giving yourself - you may be surprised that I am using the word “self” at all - enough credit. Maybe it was faith in prayer which opened yourself up to a deeper conversion experience with your Creator. If that was me, hearing that would make me feel very free. I would feel unrestrained. Unchained. And know that I could pray without build up, at any time. You know, sometimes praying with distractions around you can be a good way of showing oneself that distraction or no distraction, you are not alone.
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friardchips
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It is not that simple. If one is looking up Yoga because one is into Yoga then one is going to look up all the poses. Exposure to these poses may inspire the use of them, and just because "…Danish gymnastics showed, spirituality need not have anything to do with it.", how do we know to a safe degree that they absolutely know for certain that it is completely separated from all spirituality?; on whose authority do these gymnasts speak?
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friardchips
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I don’t think any of this is “terrible”, in fact. I think, not necessarily advisable, but not terrible unless people suffer from it, which some have. Some say they haven’t. But no, I think it is admirable that people care so much. That much is true. Even if I don’t support the Yoga-for-Christians viewpoint.
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