YOGA...ooer!

[jilly4ski]

The body is too high in priority in the process, IMHO. It is as if saying: “this position is what allows me to reach our Creator.” All solid Christian references will tell you that it is not the position that brings about communcation. The Christian posture is simple so as to not be making the body position a priority over the prayer itself.

It would have been helpful if the Vatican had elaborated a bit more on this subject as I don’t want to suggest that individuals are not reaching our Creator but I think on the whole an increase in Christians praying as we have been taught rather than dabbling in “unknown” quantities is surely wise.

I don’t see that at all. I answered the questions regarding CCC when it spoke about the “great non-Christian Eastern religions” and invited argument (apart from the last time because I was tired of repeating myself). No one kept in with that line of argument so I let it go eventually.

And I have just again put forward two pretty reasonable points in recent posts - one (again) concerning the Pope’s words and what he might have meant (to Contarini) and also one to jilly4ski and Christofirst regarding body positions in prayer, and I also mentioned the importance of checking sources to Michael, so I don’t see how I have “tapdanced around” anything!

No, don’t see that you have made a good point, in response to my points. Specifically, I addressed at which angle the head is positioned during yoga, despite my objections of its relevance. As we have determined by you skating the issue, the tilt of one’s head is irrelevant to who you are worshiping. I also addressed the issue of doing yoga “while” praying, and you promptly dismissed that as well.

Now to your point about body positions. I will agree that the body is important in Catholicism, as we are body and soul and it is important to engage both while worshiping God. Hence why we use candles, incense, chant, song, and certain postures during Mass (the only time when our postures are actually dictated). But I won’t say that the complicated ritual of the Mass (specifically Eastern Catholic rites or the EF form are particularly simple. The priest’s, deacons, and servers movements are all highly prescribed and quite complicated. (Which direction they should look, where their hand are placed, etc,). Complexity or simplicity seem to be a false dichotomy that you have set up, that have no basis in fact. (As evidenced by the fact that yoga uses the hand folded position, as well as some very natural human/children’s poses). In fact one of the lovely things about Catholicism is that it allows for a wide variety of spirituality. Benedictines are not Carmelites and nether are Jesuits. The Rosary is not the chaplet of Divine Mercy and neither are the stations of the cross.

What you have failed to understand in this discussion is that it is not a particular position in yoga or even a routine of poses (like the sun salutations) that allow one to communicate with God (that is superstitious and already condemned in Catholicism), but rather it is the routine and discipline that one subjects one’s body to, (including fasting and meditation) that lets someone put themselves in the position to be most receptive to God’s word. Just like I can say that when I am in adoration I have put myself in a position to be most receptive to hear God. So people who have reached a meditative state through yoga can engage in prayer with God.

 

[Michael_Mayo]

Finishing here for now with what you said earlier (above); what an amazing few words to end a day with! Awesome!

Sincerely, thanks for posting this, Michael!

You are welcome. I am not saying Christ awakened me because of yoga but it certainly was **instrumental **as it engaged my entire body and helped me relax in a way that prayer alone was not doing.

 

[faithsmind]

For all we know? You want to argue based on what you do not know?

Why would the intentions of others necessarily taint otherwise healthy practices?

Do you have an objection to doing the same exercises and postures but calling it something else?

I would say that the context and situation of a body’s posture would very much play into whether a posture was safe and/or moral. This can apply to other situations besides yoga. Take, for instance, a sexual posture.

In my own experience, I have practiced certain postures that are practiced in yoga but have done them in combination with other exercise classes. But when I formally paricipated in a yoga class, there was certainly a formal acknowledgement of spirituality in the class, a meditation and an art form of breathing and relaxation. I am a sensitive soul, and after a series of classes, I began to become intrigued and almost obsessed with my classes. But I also noticed a negative spiritual change in my Catholic faith and practices. There was a block there… hard to explain… but I began to notice it. After I went to confession (I did not confess Yoga class lol) the block and negativity was gone. I decided not to go to the classes anymore, though. I feel strongly that Yoga spirituality competes with my Catholic spirituality, the Holy Spirit, if that makes any sense. I attended these classes with an open mind, but after having gone, my opinion has now changed.

 

[cjforJesus]

Why would it have to be “all”?

My own rebirth in Christ came while I was practicing Yoga and meditation which is why I am hear speaking for it.

Michael.a Catholic rebirth in Christ is your Baptism.You may have had a kundalini awakening or possibly some consolations of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Michael_Mayo]

Michael.a Catholic rebirth in Christ is your Baptism.You may have had a kundalini awakening or possibly some consolations of the Holy Spirit.

I am talking about a conversion no doubt initiated by the Holy Spirit.

Can we really say someone has been born again if baptized as an infant but never a conversion of life?

 

[cjforJesus]

I am talking about a conversion no doubt initiated by the Holy Spirit.

Can we really say someone has been born again if baptized as an infant but never a conversion of life?

Yes,we can,Michael.You have to understand the workings of sanctifying grace. They continue your whole life but you have to be open to and listening to the Holy Spirit.

The catechism says we are born again in the waters of baptism and Jesus proved that by submitting himself to baptism even though it was not necessary. All 3 members of the Trinity are a witness to the importance of the sacrament of Baptism.

If you were fallen away.like I was.maybe it took a nudge or more to get you back. God is always there but we prefer to follow our own paths at times no matter how much the Holy Spirit prompts us.

 

[friardchips]

Michael.a Catholic rebirth in Christ is your Baptism.You may have had a kundalini awakening or possibly some consolations of the Holy Spirit.

It is not your business to say things like that. :tsktsk:

If the poster said he experienced a rebirth then as far as we are concerned, he experienced what he experienced, and it is not anyone’s business to go suggesting otherwise.

Many people who are baptised have a kind of turning point, a spiritual awakening, a second coming in their hearts, in their faith later on. This does not just apply to people who do Yoga. Look at the Apostles. They met our Lord. But it wasn’t until the Resurrection they had a baptism of fire.

 

[friardchips]

I am talking about a conversion no doubt initiated by the Holy Spirit.

You are not doubted on this thread. Most posters would at leats agree with me on this.

As you said, your Yoga may have helped you to focus a little more, but I think it is imortant to always reflect that it was prayer and your Creator choosing to help you that is the key.
Prayer.

How do you know it wasn’t what you said, or asked for, or that He read your heart and responded for reasons you don’t know.

 

[friardchips]

I would say that the context and situation of a body’s posture would very much play into whether a posture was safe and/or moral. This can apply to other situations besides yoga. Take, for instance, a sexual posture.

In my own experience, I have practiced certain postures that are practiced in yoga but have done them in combination with other exercise classes. But when I formally paricipated in a yoga class, there was certainly a formal acknowledgement of spirituality in the class, a meditation and an art form of breathing and relaxation. I am a sensitive soul, and after a series of classes, I began to become intrigued and almost obsessed with my classes. But I also noticed a negative spiritual change in my Catholic faith and practices. There was a block there… hard to explain… but I began to notice it. After I went to confession (I did not confess Yoga class lol) the block and negativity was gone. I decided not to go to the classes anymore, though. I feel strongly that Yoga spirituality competes with my Catholic spirituality, the Holy Spirit, if that makes any sense. I attended these classes with an open mind, but after having gone, my opinion has now changed.

I don’t mean to interrupt your conversation, only to quickly insert, that I think true stories such as this from people such as youself who have done Yoga, and then gone on to discern whether okay or not, makes for the most vital (name removed by moderator)ut. IMO, people who have had experience of these things could do more often with vocalising their stories, to share their knowledge.

 

[friardchips]

Yes,we can,Michael.You have to understand the workings of sanctifying grace. They continue your whole life but you have to be open to and listening to the Holy Spirit.

The catechism says we are born again in the waters of baptism and Jesus proved that by submitting himself to baptism even though it was not necessary. All 3 members of the Trinity are a witness to the importance of the sacrament of Baptism.

If you were fallen away.like I was.maybe it took a nudge or more to get you back. God is always there but we prefer to follow our own paths at times no matter how much the Holy Spirit prompts us.

cjforj…I was a bit strong with you earlier, sorry.

Basically, maybe rebirth is the wrong word, but please can we not judge and make blanket statements over people’s personal experiences. If the poster wishes to follow up on this and question it then advice from a priest might be better.

Thanks!

 

[agnes_therese]

I don’t mean to interrupt your conversation, only to quickly insert, that I think true stories such as this from people such as youself **who have done Yoga, and then gone on to discern whether okay or not, **makes for the most vital (name removed by moderator)ut.IMO, people who have had experience of these things could do more often with vocalising their stories, to share their knowledge.

And yet, you don’t seem to put the same value on the true stories from those who have discerned that it is OK. Is the (name removed by moderator)ut only “vital” if it agrees with your personal opinion?

 

[friardchips]

No, don’t see that you have made a good point, in response to my points. Specifically, I addressed at which angle the head is positioned during yoga, despite my objections of its relevance. As we have determined by you skating the issue, the tilt of one’s head is irrelevant to who you are worshiping. I also addressed the issue of doing yoga “while” praying, and you promptly dismissed that as well.

Howdy. I answered this little nugget by mentioning Our Lady’s bowed head during her apparitions - holy reverance.

Now to your point about body positions. I will agree that the body is important in Catholicism, as we are body and soul and it is important to engage both while worshiping God. Hence why we use candles, incense, chant, song, and certain postures during Mass (the only time when our postures are actually dictated). But I won’t say that the complicated ritual of the Mass (specifically Eastern Catholic rites or the EF form are particularly simple. The priest’s, deacons, and servers movements are all highly prescribed and quite complicated. (Which direction they should look, where their hand are placed, etc,).

Thanks for this write up. I think holy reverence again is what strikes me here. The reason for having rituals in Mass is because they have been organised with love down the centuries and passed on for us as a gift as things done well which are good.

Complexity or simplicity seem to be a false dichotomy that you have set up, that have no basis in fact. (As evidenced by the fact that yoga uses the hand folded position, as well as some very natural human/children’s poses).

True, but I could put my hands together and bray like a donkey, this doesn’t make it prayer because my hands are together. What makes it prayer is because I am praying to Our Creator (all donkey noises ceasing at the point); however, the position matters when applying prayer to express a reverential attitude, in heart. Which is why I said about praying when working but not working when praying. There was a series on TV about some Benedictines in the U.K and this is when I first heard about that joke - it is okay to pray when you smoke but not okay to smoke while you pray. I think this is loving and not restricting. A woman could go to the beach and set time aside there to pray in her bikini but would it not be more thoughtful to pray before, when dressed properly. However, she could go there and having joy, say a prayer of thanks in her head for the time spent there, which shows extra thought rather than a lack of thought. So external movement is important because it expresses the reverence we have for Our Creator, inside, our internal disposition. Otherwise, using extremes, sin wouldn’t matter. But it does. So the expressions of the heart are lived out, not just in intention - because we are human and so are physical beings as well as spiritual - but in our thoughts, our actions, and our words.

In fact one of the lovely things about Catholicism is that it allows for a wide variety of spirituality. Benedictines are not Carmelites and nether are Jesuits. The Rosary is not the chaplet of Divine Mercy and neither are the stations of the cross.

These different Orders have different charism that are lived out in different ways. But they do not worship using non-Christian techniques. On the contrary, they are branches from the same True Vine.

What you have failed to understand in this discussion is that it is not a particular position in yoga or even a routine of poses (like the sun salutations) that allow one to communicate with God (that is superstitious and already condemned in Catholicism), but rather it is the routine and discipline that one subjects one’s body to, (including fasting and meditation) that lets someone put themselves in the position to be most receptive to God’s word. Just like I can say that when I am in adoration I have put myself in a position to be most receptive to hear God. So people who have reached a meditative state through yoga can engage in prayer with God.

This is what Michael was saying. This is the most concrete argument, IMO, for Yoga. So will think more on it before responding. Thanks for your time!

 

[Michael_Mayo]

I would say that the context and situation of a body’s posture would very much play into whether a posture was safe and/or moral. This can apply to other situations besides yoga. Take, for instance, a sexual posture.

In my own experience, I have practiced certain postures that are practiced in yoga but have done them in combination with other exercise classes. But when I formally paricipated in a yoga class, there was certainly a formal acknowledgement of spirituality in the class, a meditation and an art form of breathing and relaxation. I am a sensitive soul, and after a series of classes, I began to become intrigued and almost obsessed with my classes. But I also noticed a negative spiritual change in my Catholic faith and practices. There was a block there… hard to explain… but I began to notice it. After I went to confession (I did not confess Yoga class lol) the block and negativity was gone. I decided not to go to the classes anymore, though. I feel strongly that Yoga spirituality competes with my Catholic spirituality, the Holy Spirit, if that makes any sense. I attended these classes with an open mind, but after having gone, my opinion has now changed.

My experience was just the opposite, I guess. Doing yoga was like offering my body to the Lord, every fiber of my being, every cell of my body. But I don’t like to go to yoga classes and almost never do anymore. It is private and I wont be distracted by other people in tight clothes in sometimes imodest postures.

I am not saying everyone ought to try yoga nor am I saying it leads to spiritual awakening or closeness to God any more than any other activity like running, lifting weights, golfing, sewing, gardening. An atheist or Buddhist or Christian can do all these things. But the meaning they have in their lives will depend on the individual.

 

[friardchips]

My experience was just the opposite, I guess. Doing yoga was like offering my body to the Lord, every fiber of my being, every cell of my body. But I don’t like to go to yoga classes and almost never do anymore. It is private and I wont be distracted by other people in tight clothes in sometimes imodest postures.

I am not saying everyone ought to try yoga nor am I saying it leads to spiritual awakening or closeness to God any more than any other activity like running, lifting weights, golfing, sewing, gardening. An atheist or Buddhist or Christian can do all these things. But the meaning they have in their lives will depend on the individual.

Quickly chiming in to say that although I remain opposed to Yoga-for-Christians, nevertheless, I do like this post.

 

[Contarini]

Certainly, this is the strongest argument. That things find their way back to their rightful place - in worship of our Creator who Christians recognise specifically. But in that case, why hasn’t the Vatican blessed it? Why has the Pope said not to seek those answers with that practice?

Or in catechesis.

You continue to ignore that obvious point.

If you have already addressed it, please give me the number of the post in which you have done so.

Edwin

 

[Michael_Mayo]

But they do not worship using non-Christian techniques. On the contrary, they are branches from the same True Vine.

But what detrimines “Christian”. So much of what is now Christian originated from non Christian roots…like the philosophy of the soul form Plato, the use of a symbolic tree at Christmas, candles, bells, inscense, etc.

 

[friardchips]

And yet, you don’t seem to put the same value on the true stories from those who have discerned that it is OK. Is the (name removed by moderator)ut only “vital” if it agrees with your personal opinion?

I am entitled to start a thread on the subject. I appreciate all opinions from either side and am not making any judgements about people’s personal experiences. And neither would I. If you wish to post a personal experience from Yoga practice, do so, without fear of cross examination.

 

[cjforJesus]

My experience was just the opposite, I guess. Doing yoga was like offering my body to the Lord, every fiber of my being, every cell of my body. But I don’t like to go to yoga classes and almost never do anymore. It is private and I wont be distracted by other people in tight clothes in sometimes imodest postures.

I am not saying everyone ought to try yoga nor am I saying it leads to spiritual awakening or closeness to God any more than any other activity like running, lifting weights, golfing, sewing, gardening. An atheist or Buddhist or Christian can do all these things. But the meaning they have in their lives will depend on the individual.

Very nice post.Michael. Thanks for the clarification. God bless

 

[cjforJesus]

It is not your business to say things like that. :tsktsk:

If the poster said he experienced a rebirth then as far as we are concerned, he experienced what he experienced, and it is not anyone’s business to go suggesting otherwise.

Many people who are baptised have a kind of turning point, a spiritual awakening, a second coming in their hearts, in their faith later on. This does not just apply to people who do Yoga. Look at the Apostles. They met our Lord. But it wasn’t until the Resurrection they had a baptism of fire.

Water baptism and baptism of fire are the same thing.It is the sanctifying grace that is the fire. Jesus said the Holy Spirit baptizes with fire and he proved it.His very own baptism in water for REPENTANCE was unnecessary but fulfilled all righteousness.

Yes many people have conversion experiences where they were definitely on a dangerous path but were put back on track by a gift of grace.Even so our whole lives are a conversion experience because though we put on Christ and become a member of His body at Baptism, we continually grow in faith and charity.

Galations 3:27

For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

 

[agnes_therese]

I am entitled to start a thread on the subject. I appreciate all opinions from either side and am not making any judgements about people’s personal experiences. And neither would I. If you wish to post a personal experience from Yoga practice, do so, without fear of cross examination.

Which does not answer my question, of course. So, never mind.