YOGA...ooer!

[Michael_Mayo]

This is a well-reasoned post, IMO. What you are doing by comparing against the Vatican document, to seek what is good and true, makes far more sense to me than a lot of what has gone before in this thread. Nevertheless, for the sake of well-grounded argument, the same questions remain: who and when and why was this article written?; is this article trustworthy based on the information collated from further investigation into questioning the source of the article, or from, questioning it.

One other question to do with Yoga when praying: when pulling off Yoga positions, when praying, what angle is the head during the process of forming these positions?

The article is a summary of the book, The Yoga Body. All your question can be answered reading the description and reviews at Amazon.

Except for you last question which makes no sense.

 

[agnes_therese]

But you are blatantly misreading the Pope, since obviously he did not intend to condemn catechesis.

You obviously have an axe to grind and are twisting the Pope’s words to support your silly crusade.

Edwin

Of course he didn’t intend to condemn catechesis. The only people I’ve seen twist his words, on this thread, are the ones who say he was condemning yoga, but not the other items he mentioned in the same terms, in the same sentence.

One more time, the words of the Pope:
“You can take a million catechetical courses, a million courses in spirituality, a million courses in yoga, Zen and all these things. But all of this will never be able to give you the freedom” of being a child of God.

The only way anyone can claim he was condemning yoga in this sentence, is to say he was also condemning catechetical courses and spirituality. Talk about “twisting!”

 

[Contarini]

How so?

I’m so sorry. I meant to respond to friardchips and accidentally posted it in response to you instead!

I was a bit rude to him, for that matter, but I certainly didn’t mean to apply those remarks to you.

I think you’re legitimizing friardchips’ misinterpretation by even addressing whether your position is “at odds with the Pope’s advice,” since the Pope said nothing any more negative toward yoga than toward catechesis (and spirituality, which I’m pretty sure meant Catholic spirituality in that context, but I can’t prove that so I’m focusing on catechesis, which is obviously referring to orthodox Catholicism).

Edwin

 

[Michael_Mayo]

I’m so sorry. I meant to respond to friardchips and accidentally posted it in response to you instead!

I was a bit rude to him, for that matter, but I certainly didn’t mean to apply those remarks to you.

I think you’re legitimizing friardchips’ misinterpretation by even addressing whether your position is “at odds with the Pope’s advice,” since the Pope said nothing any more negative toward yoga than toward catechesis (and spirituality, which I’m pretty sure meant Catholic spirituality in that context, but I can’t prove that so I’m focusing on catechesis, which is obviously referring to orthodox Catholicism).

Edwin

I thought maybe so. But yes, I do legitimize his misinterpretation by how else can it be challenged?

 

[friardchips]

Umm, I was specifically referencing the angle of the head, not the faith in general (yes, I agree our faith is important).

So first, I would say it depends on the person. Some people who do Christianized yoga, do the yoga to put them in a meditative state in order to be more receptive to God’s word, thus yoga becomes a form of prayer. The other way, is those people who make everything they do a form of prayer, even while not explicitly praying. Parents are indeed tend to become adept that this, they are being like Christ as they care for their child and do the chores, and sacrifice for their family. Their work has become a prayer. But this can follow to everything a person does. Their work, fun and entertainment, their home, etc.

Second, humility does not work merely by taking a certain posture. It is the intent that counts. The posture might help one feel more unworthy before God, but anyone can take a humble looking posture. Are you familiar with yoga (westernized) at all. At least half the postures one is looking at the floor, while another large amount have the person looking straight ahead, (good posture is very important in yoga and they tell you to imagine a string attached to the top of your head to that it is in an ergonomic position), and a small minority have one looking upwards, though usually only in a fluid motion. Like one motion you sweep your arms above your head and look up, and then bring your hand down into a prayer position and you look straight ahead.

Yoga uses the prayer position for the hands, does that mean that Christians can’t put their hands in the prayer position, because they are actually worshiping kundini?

http://www.vibeshifting.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/namaste.jpg

I think you’ve completely skated around my points! Is that lipstick?!

 

[friardchips]

I thought maybe so. But yes, I do legitimize his misinterpretation by how else can it be challenged?

You folks have wildly and blatently skidded around attempting to answer any of the points I raised which is a feature throughout this thread! I am starting to think it is because you can’t. Which kind of stands to reason, I guess! If you are arguing against reason!

 

[friardchips]

For the posters who have yet again brought up the ‘catechism’ argument to justify your practicing of Yoga…my answer is the same: you took part in those conversations already so please go back into the thread and familiarise yourselves with the very reasonable responses already given instead of churning it all up again as if I never responded the first few times! …purely for the sake of keeping things rolling along. If you want to vaguely attempt answering my initial responses to those specific arguments then go ahead!

 

[friardchips]

The article is a summary of the book, The Yoga Body. All your question can be answered reading the description and reviews at Amazon.

Except for you last question which makes no sense.

Same questions remain unanswered from my previous posts so the ball remains in your court!

 

[friardchips]

I think you’re legitimizing friardchips’ misinterpretation by even addressing whether your position is “at odds with the Pope’s advice,” since the Pope said nothing any more negative toward yoga than toward catechesis (and spirituality, which I’m pretty sure meant Catholic spirituality in that context, but I can’t prove that so I’m focusing on catechesis, which is obviously referring to orthodox Catholicism).

Edwin

Yes, BUT, that is the point.

Of course he was speaking to Christians. He is not going to tell Hindus and Buddhists to stop doing Yoga and Zen because that would like telling them to stop practicing their own religion which they are obviously not about to do.

For hindus - go for it.

For Christians - a no go.

For the sake of cutting a long story short. I analysed before, the word “can”. He said that you “can do” all these things. This can does not mean he is saying it is okay for Christians to go and practice these other religious forms. He obviously isn’t! He is using the word “can” in a vague general way to say we “can” do lots of things - for good and bad, and neutral - to try and deepen our spirituality, however, for the Christian to practice these things is pointless because we will not find our Creator at the end of doing it because they are not spiritually enhancing and about as useful as studying the catechism to increase one’s faith. The catechism remark is his way of showing us that he is speaking to Christians. So what is he saying then, to do it anyway? Let us follow this reasoning: “Yes, Christians, at the service of the Roman Catholic Church, I declare it is okay for all Christians to go and waste their time!” Obviously not. He is not going to say it is okay to waste our time. And if he is saying that we cannot find spiritual answers in Yoga then what is it that people are reporting to feel from doing Yoga? He obviously made the remark due to people saying they are experiencing something! Also, he did not separate ‘Christian’ Yoga from Hindu spirituality Yoga, did he?

 

[friardchips]

Umm, I was specifically referencing the angle of the head, not the faith in general (yes, I agree our faith is important).

So first, I would say it depends on the person. Some people who do Christianized yoga, do the yoga to put them in a meditative state in order to be more receptive to God’s word, thus yoga becomes a form of prayer. The other way, is those people who make everything they do a form of prayer, even while not explicitly praying. Parents are indeed tend to become adept that this, they are being like Christ as they care for their child and do the chores, and sacrifice for their family. Their work has become a prayer. But this can follow to everything a person does. Their work, fun and entertainment, their home, etc.

Second, humility does not work merely by taking a certain posture. It is the intent that counts. The posture might help one feel more unworthy before God, but anyone can take a humble looking posture. Are you familiar with yoga (westernized) at all. At least half the postures one is looking at the floor, while another large amount have the person looking straight ahead, (good posture is very important in yoga and they tell you to imagine a string attached to the top of your head to that it is in an ergonomic position), and a small minority have one looking upwards, though usually only in a fluid motion. Like one motion you sweep your arms above your head and look up, and then bring your hand down into a prayer position and you look straight ahead.

Yoga uses the prayer position for the hands, does that mean that Christians can’t put their hands in the prayer position, because they are actually worshiping kundini?

The body is too high in priority in the process, IMHO. It is as if saying: “this position is what allows me to reach our Creator.” All solid Christian references will tell you that it is not the position that brings about communcation. The Christian posture is simple so as to not be making the body position a priority over the prayer itself.

It would have been helpful if the Vatican had elaborated a bit more on this subject as I don’t want to suggest that individuals are not reaching our Creator but I think on the whole an increase in Christians praying as we have been taught rather than dabbling in “unknown” quantities is surely wise.

 

[friardchips]

Of course he didn’t intend to condemn catechesis. The only people I’ve seen twist his words, on this thread, are the ones who say he was condemning yoga, but not the other items he mentioned in the same terms, in the same sentence.

One more time, the words of the Pope:
“You can take a million catechetical courses, a million courses in spirituality, a million courses in yoga, Zen and all these things. But all of this will never be able to give you the freedom” of being a child of God.

The only way anyone can claim he was condemning yoga in this sentence, is to say he was also condemning catechetical courses and spirituality. Talk about “twisting!”

Just answered this argument in a response to Contarini meant for you also.

 

[friardchips]

:knight1:

 

[agnes_therese]

For the posters who have yet again brought up the ‘catechism’ argument to justify your practicing of Yoga…my answer is the same: you took part in those conversations already so please go back into the thread and familiarise yourselves with the very reasonable responses already given instead of churning it all up again as if I never responded the first few times! …purely for the sake of keeping things rolling along. If you want to vaguely attempt answering my initial responses to those specific arguments then go ahead!

You’re the one who keeps dodging the question raised by your twisting of the Pope’s words, which you began doing very early on. None of the rest of us need to revisit anything.

You have shown, throughout this thread, such an amazing ability to tapdance around things you don’t want to address, and to change the subject when you’ve been shown to be wrong, that I just have to ask – have you considered a career in politics? You seem to have great potential for that field.

 

[friardchips]

You’re the one who keeps dodging the question raised by your twisting of the Pope’s words, which you began doing very early on. None of the rest of us need to revisit anything.

You have shown, throughout this thread, such an amazing ability to tapdance around things you don’t want to address, and to change the subject when you’ve been shown to be wrong, that I just have to ask – have you considered a career in politics? You seem to have great potential for that field.

I don’t see that at all. I answered the questions regarding CCC when it spoke about the “great non-Christian Eastern religions” and invited argument (apart from the last time because I was tired of repeating myself). No one kept in with that line of argument so I let it go eventually.

And I have just again put forward two pretty reasonable points in recent posts - one (again) concerning the Pope’s words and what he might have meant (to Contarini) and also one to jilly4ski and Christofirst regarding body positions in prayer, and I also mentioned the importance of checking sources to Michael, so I don’t see how I have “tapdanced around” anything!

In fact, it is my opinion that has grown over the course of the thread, more than what I can see my opposition’s opinions have - for example, I am using non-demonology language now to argue my point, as I have come to realise that this this is too difficult an angle and one is not necessarily going to attract demons in every Yoga session (if you check the beginning of my thread you will see my language has changed). So this shows I am open to debate and open to growth through learning. Not rigid. Politicians, however, are all about power. Power is exactly what I am trying to argue against! You are Carmelite laity, or so I read, so if you are then I am befuddled as to why you can’t appreciate more fully the serious spiritual aspects of the points I am raising.

 

[Michael_Mayo]

Thwho and when and why was this article written?; is this article trustworthy based on the information collated from further investigation into questioning the source of the article, or from, questioning it.

Ok. I’ll do the work for you.

Mark Singleton teaches at St. John’s College, Santa Fe, New Mexico. He is the editor, with Jean Byrne, of Yoga in the Modern World: Contemporary Perspectives. He lives in Santa Fe. ingleton is a fervent yoga practitioner and has yoga teaching diplomas in the Iyengar and Satyananda traditions. He concentrates on the transition from the classical conception of yoga as a philosophical system to the version we know today as postural yoga. Without denying that some Asanas were mentioned in classical texts (around 450 AD, Vyasa’s comments on Patanjali’s Yoga Sutra named 12 poses, and the Hatha Yoga Pradipika, around 1350, included 84), Singleton examines in detail why Asanas did not initially receive the same attention that they have in modern times.

Yoga Body is an important tool for every yoga scholar, well written and well documented. It is the author’s PhD dissertation at the Faculty of Divinity, University of Cambridge, where he worked as Research Assistant to Elizabeth De Michelis. Mark Singleton teaches at St. John’s College, Santa Fe (NM), and was one of the main contributors to the recent Encyclopedia of Hinduism (Routledge, 2007).

Book published in February 10, 2010

“Mark Singleton has written a sweeping and nuanced account of the origins and development of modern postural yoga in early twentieth-century India and the West, arguing convincingly that yoga as we know it today does not flow directly from the Yoga Sutras or India’s medieval hatha yoga traditions, but rather emerged out of a confluence of practices, movements and ideologies, ranging from contortionist acts in carnival sideshows, British Army calisthenics and women’s stretching exercises to social Darwinism, eugenics, and the Indian nationalist movement. The richly illustrated story he tells is an especially welcome contribution to the history of yoga, demonstrating the ways in which an ancient tradition was reinvented against the backdrop of India’s colonial experience.” --Prof. David Gordon White, University of California, Santa Barbara. Author of The Alchemical Body, Siddha Traditions in Medieval India.

Singleton has stirred controversy. But to what degree Danish Gymnnastics influenced what we have come to know as Hatha yoga or not is beeside the point. The point is that there is no inherent superstitous linkage between posture and one specific philosophy or religion. The picture just above of hands in prayer is a simple example.

 

[Michael_Mayo]

I don’t see that at all. I answered the questions regarding CCC when it spoke about the “great non-Christian Eastern religions” and invited argument (apart from the last time because I was tired of repeating myself). No one kept in with that line of argument so I let it go eventually.

Because it lacked substance.

 

[Michael_Mayo]

Yes, BUT, that is the point.

Of course he was speaking to Christians. He is not going to tell Hindus and Buddhists to stop doing Yoga and Zen because that would like telling them to stop practicing their own religion which they are obviously not about to do.

For hindus - go for it.

For Christians - a no go.

For the sake of cutting a long story short. I analysed before, the word “can”. He said that you “can do” all these things. This can does not mean he is saying it is okay for Christians to go and practice these other religious forms. He obviously isn’t! He is using the word “can” in a vague general way to say we “can” do lots of things - for good and bad, and neutral - to try and deepen our spirituality, however, for the Christian to practice these things is pointless because we will not find our Creator at the end of doing it because they are not spiritually enhancing and about as useful as studying the catechism to increase one’s faith. The catechism remark is his way of showing us that he is speaking to Christians. So what is he saying then, to do it anyway? Let us follow this reasoning: “Yes, Christians, at the service of the Roman Catholic Church, I declare it is okay for all Christians to go and waste their time!” Obviously not. He is not going to say it is okay to waste our time. And if he is saying that we cannot find spiritual answers in Yoga then what is it that people are reporting to feel from doing Yoga? He obviously made the remark due to people saying they are experiencing something! Also, he did not separate ‘Christian’ Yoga from Hindu spirituality Yoga, did he?

I am sorry but that last paragraph makes no sense to me. Can you summarize it in one sentance please? And you are saying it is useless to study catechism to increase our faith?

 

[friardchips]

Because it lacked substance.

THAT, is not an argument. As you know.

 

[friardchips]

I am sorry but that last paragraph makes no sense to me. Can you summarize it in one sentance please?

If you are capable of getting your head around convoluted Yoga philosophy then you can understand my paragraph: so, I might repeat myself for you again, because I “can”, repeat myself! I “can” do lots of things. Do you understand now?

 

[friardchips]

Ok. I’ll do the work for you.

Mark Singleton teaches at St. John’s College, Santa Fe, New Mexico. He is the editor, with Jean Byrne, of Yoga in the Modern World: Contemporary Perspectives. He lives in Santa Fe. ingleton is a fervent yoga practitioner and has yoga teaching diplomas in the Iyengar and Satyananda traditions. He concentrates on the transition from the classical conception of yoga as a philosophical system to the version we know today as postural yoga. Without denying that some Asanas were mentioned in classical texts (around 450 AD, Vyasa’s comments on Patanjali’s Yoga Sutra named 12 poses, and the Hatha Yoga Pradipika, around 1350, included 84), Singleton examines in detail why Asanas did not initially receive the same attention that they have in modern times.

Yoga Body is an important tool for every yoga scholar, well written and well documented. It is the author’s PhD dissertation at the Faculty of Divinity, University of Cambridge, where he worked as Research Assistant to Elizabeth De Michelis. Mark Singleton teaches at St. John’s College, Santa Fe (NM), and was one of the main contributors to the recent Encyclopedia of Hinduism (Routledge, 2007).

Book published in February 10, 2010

“Mark Singleton has written a sweeping and nuanced account of the origins and development of modern postural yoga in early twentieth-century India and the West, arguing convincingly that yoga as we know it today does not flow directly from the Yoga Sutras or India’s medieval hatha yoga traditions, but rather emerged out of a confluence of practices, movements and ideologies, ranging from contortionist acts in carnival sideshows, British Army calisthenics and women’s stretching exercises to social Darwinism, eugenics, and the Indian nationalist movement]. The richly illustrated story he tells is an especially welcome contribution to the history of yoga, demonstrating the ways in which an ancient tradition was reinvented against the backdrop of India’s colonial experience.” --Prof. David Gordon White, University of California, Santa Barbara. Author of The Alchemical Body, Siddha Traditions in Medieval India.

Singleton has stirred controversy. But to what degree Danish Gymnnastics influenced what we have come to know as Hatha yoga or not is beeside the point. The point is that there is no inherent superstitous linkage between posture and one specific philosophy or religion. The picture just above of hands in prayer is a simple example.

Thanks for this. I’m not trying to wash over this whole document but one thing didn’t make sense to me: this paragraph maintains that he convincingly shows that Yoga does not flow from the very roots that the paragraph goes on to say they emerged from - ‘*the Indian National *Movement’ which probably incorporates 'Yoga Sutras or India’s medieval hatha yoga traditions’. The need to dig deeper, is what I expect.

At least it is a start!