YOGA...ooer!

[Contarini]

Is yoga not a form of complete self-focus, focusing on ourselves we have too much of today. I say yoga is, at least, problematic for Christians. We should abandon ourselves, and focus on God and his Divine Will. No eastern spirituality-even wrapped in the disguise of exercise- for Christians. Same with “Centering Prayer.”

No, the point of yoga is to transcend the ego–what Christians mean traditionally by the “self.”

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

Contarini, curiosity can kill the cat, as can the dragon kill the human (), when placing ourselves into spiritual “unknowns” !

Medieval spiritual writers did indeed warn against “curiosity,” as did the Apostles. There is a kind of curiosity that is motivated by pride, for sure.

But a genuine love of truth and beauty and a desire to search these things out are as necessary to us as food and air and water. To kill that is to do the work of Hell.

As I have pointed out before, spiritual danger is not amoral. We expose ourselves to spiritual danger by pride, lack of charity, a failure to pray and practice works of piety that nurture virtuous habits, and above all by looking away from Christ to our own righteousness. Perhaps the most deadly thing we can do is to exalt ourselves over others. That will let demons in very quickly. This is all traditional, basic Christian piety I’m holding forth here.

In light of these ancient and undisputed truths, your concerns about a sort of amoral spiritual contagion supposedly gaining a foothold in us because of a sincere desire to seek out elements of goodness in other religions (elements that the Church clearly affirms exist) seem highly misguided. Indeed, such an attitude of suspicion and superiority toward other religions is itself extremely spiritually dangerous.

So there may be a strand of Yoga, a philosophy within the whole, which holds some truth about life in there somewhere, yet all strands lead back to a root, so it follows that if the root is sound, then surely ALL the strands will be sound too, which is not reported to be the case with Yoga.

By that argument the root of Christianity–and specifically of Catholicism–must be very unsound indeed.

Another argument, is that this avatar can be attributed to meaning this, or this thing in this philosophy can really be a metaphor for this, but in Christian understanding, this would be called progressive. Sure, we have metaphors, but they are more than metaphors, because underneath those are real and actual realities. The life of He who IS, His followers, their testaments, the Church and all she does for the greater good - the GOOD root and the fruit. These are not just metaphors, they are real and actual. They are not spiritual “unknowns”. The Word is alive, up close and personal, inviting us to be more up close and personal every day, in relationship, in union. The GOOD root is not an impersonal metaphor, the GOOD root has an actual and specific name, and His follows do too

And his followers have frequently committed great evil in that “specific name,” particularly when they were most certain that their love of God required them to condemn and look down on others.

So if you care about root and fruits, you have to take this seriously.

Names are important as they distinguish between what is good and real and actual to what is false, and airy, and leading to more guessing. I love stories from other cultures and belief systems, but for me they are just representative of momentary whimsy, and for those serious about love, also somewhat flighty, following what we know is the fruit of the GOOD root. Sure, a certain kind of commitment to a kind of searching for love might be found in other belief systems, but there are extra depths of known and recognised love to be discovered when we pay attention to actual names and get specific.

I don’t dispute this. No one is trying to play down the particularity of Christianity on this thread, as far as I can see.

This is what I was trying to say before and one other thing too: it is also suggested that some forms of Yoga derive from, or is used for sexual practices, and there I was thinking that chastity was a huge part of our commitment -whether or not we fail at this, we at least try to be branches, strands, of the GOOD ROOT, whom we know is pure and GOOD, and don’t need to be uncertain and unknowing.

Actually chastity is one of the “yamas”–the ascetic commitments that are traditionally required before even beginning to practice yoga. This is one of the many places where the watered-down Western “it’s just exercise” or vaguely New-Agey forms of yoga are actually less compatible with Christianity than the traditional Hindu practice is.

Yes, in some forms of tantric Hinduism yoga is used in connection with specific kinds of sexual practices to transcend normal awareness and attain enlightenment. But these are minority practices and very far from characteristic.

Edwin

 

[agnes_therese]

Is yoga not a form of complete self-focus, focusing on ourselves we have too much of today.

By that logic, we shouldn’t do any serious physical exercise. Most requires “self-focus” for short periods of time, just as yoga does.

 

[Michael_Mayo]

By that logic, we shouldn’t do any serious physical exercise. Most requires “self-focus” for short periods of time, just as yoga does.

Nor should we do examine of conscience.

 

[cjforJesus]

No, the point of yoga is to transcend the ego–what Christians mean traditionally by the “self.”

Edwin

From what I have read the point of yoga is to awaken some alleged serpent power which lies dormant in our lower spine.

I seriously doubt that God put some weird psychic power in our bums.

 

[friardchips]

Medieval spiritual writers did indeed warn against “curiosity,” as did the Apostles. There is a kind of curiosity that is motivated by pride, for sure.

Thank you for your response.

To your first paragraph, curiosity isn’t necessarily always driven by pride, but can lead to “unknowns”.

But a genuine love of truth and beauty and a desire to search these things out are as necessary to us as food and air and water. To kill that is to do the work of Hell.

A bit strong. We are to discern the spirits and work out our salvation. Bit like I’m trying to do on here! *‘Truth and beauty’ *are GOOD so a valid point which raises the exact reason why one does not admonish other belief systems, even if in the light of Christian Revelation, in which we understand that our teaching is complete - the fulfilment of Truth and Beauty as lived out in the NT. I would suggest that it is the work of Hell which attempts to lead us away from Scripture and the Church; or our curiosity, which can lead to Hell. Now Pope Francis advised Christians to “not seek spiritual answers in Yoga”; however, there is room for investigation into these practices, but this is a far cry from practicing them.

As I have pointed out before, spiritual danger is not amoral. We expose ourselves to spiritual danger by pride, lack of charity, a failure to pray and practice works of piety that nurture virtuous habits, and above all by looking away from Christ to our own righteousness. Perhaps the most deadly thing we can do is to exalt ourselves over others. That will let demons in very quickly. This is all traditional, basic Christian piety I’m holding forth here.

I agree with all of the above apart from ‘spiritual danger is not amoral’. I answered this already in my previous post. I do wonder whether not discerning the spirits could be regarded as putting oneself in a near occasion of sin. I am guessing here, btw.

In light of these ancient and undisputed truths, your concerns about a sort of amoral spiritual contagion supposedly gaining a foothold in us because of a sincere desire to seek out elements of goodness in other religions (elements that the Church clearly affirms exist) seem highly misguided. Indeed, such an attitude of suspicion and superiority toward other religions is itself extremely spiritually dangerous.

I haven’t done as such what I am being accused of here. You will see this if you read my post again. This thread is not about Hindus practicing their religious beliefs, it is about Yoga from a Catholic perspective. Before I was to undergo such a venture I would certainly seek the advice of priests as to whether it was necessary to my spiritual progress to undertake new practices of worship which are historically non-Christian and connected, seemingly life and limb, to non-Christian Eastern religious worship.

By that argument the root of Christianity–and specifically of Catholicism–must be very unsound indeed.

We are talking about the GOOD root so I have no idea what you mean and do not recognise this statement as coherent (?!)

And his followers have frequently committed great evil in that “specific name,” particularly when they were most certain that their love of God required them to condemn and look down on others.

Again, I have no idea what you mean. The foundation of the Church *is *the blood of martyrs. There were times in which the Church thought it necessary to defend itself against attacks from various directions for the sake of survival. If members within the Church (which is a sacrament) went about this in an aggressive way then it is the fault of those particular members as opposed to the Church herself. The Roman Catholic Church is founded on solid Rock, rooted on GOOD.

So if you care about root and fruits, you have to take this seriously.

Oh, I am quite sure that the Church is rooted on GOOD, thank you.

I don’t dispute this. No one is trying to play down the particularity of Christianity on this thread, as far as I can see.

Again, I don’t know what this is referring to.

Actually chastity is one of the “yamas”–the ascetic commitments that are traditionally required before even beginning to practice yoga. This is one of the many places where the watered-down Western “it’s just exercise” or vaguely New-Agey forms of yoga are actually less compatible with Christianity than the traditional Hindu practice is.

Yes, in some forms of tantric Hinduism yoga is used in connection with specific kinds of sexual practices to transcend normal awareness and attain enlightenment. But these are minority practices and very far from characteristic.

Edwin

The two areas underlined in this paragraph highlights the context in my previous post regarding ‘strands’ - strands of Yoga are seemingly not compatible with one another. The practices argue amongst themselves, and we know, that a house which is divided against itself cannot stand.

There are no mistruths in Catholic doctrines or dogmas. They lead to the praise of the GOOD root.

Thanks for your time.

F.C.

 

[friardchips]

Nor should we do examine of conscience.

If you say one is praying with the use of Yoga, then I (think) one is praying AND doing Yoga.

The other thing is that you seem confused over what is meant by meditation, or at least, what one needs to do in order to contemplate:

‘However, in meditation the method used is intended to lead to a prayer beyond all methods, that is contemplative prayer. Contemplation is often a misunderstood word. It is not a prayer that we can initiate or cause to happen. It is divinely produced and no amount of action on our part can produce or prolong it.’

carmelitesistersocd.com/2013/meditation-contemplation/

• this is taken from a Carmelite website, the same Order in which St. John of the Cross belonged - he was spiritual Father to Teresa of Avila.

 

[friardchips]

From what I have read the point of yoga is to awaken some alleged serpent power which lies dormant in our lower spine.

I seriously doubt that God put some weird psychic power in our bums.

I would put it more like this: feelings around that area could if focussed on can become distorted in a person’s conscious thoughts, which does not lend itself to the natural order (the natural order is in itself GOOD). Satan is real and demons are too. They want to lead people away from what is GOOD and so naturally they would extend their participation to anything that could lead away from what is ‘pro-life’ and therefore ‘pro-creation’. The natural order was made GOOD, what comes after is what we do with this natural order, a consequence of how we respond to what is thrown at us.

 

[cjforJesus]

If you say one is praying with the use of Yoga, then I (think) one is praying AND doing Yoga.

The other thing is that you seem confused over what is meant by meditation, or at least, what one needs to do in order to contemplate:

'However, in meditation the method used is intended to lead to a prayer beyond all methods, that is contemplative prayer. Contemplation is often a misunderstood word. It is not a prayer that we can initiate or cause to happen. It is divinely produced and no amount of action on our part can produce or prolong it.’

carmelitesistersocd.com/2013/meditation-contemplation/

• this is taken from a Carmelite website, the same Order in which St. John of the Cross belonged - he was spiritual Father to Teresa of Avila.

Thanks for the great explanation on contemplative prayer and what is actually is. I would have to disagree though with Sr Mary that contemplation is common or even to be desired. St Teresa of Avila said in “The way of Perfection” that one has to forgo all relationships and exist solely for God.I don’t know that many modern people could actually do that especially if one has children. I am inclined to believe that many of these old writings were written for nuns and monks and other ascetics who were totally removed from the world.

When considering St Teresas “Interior Castle”,I have heard many equate her religious ecstasy to Shakti or a rising of kundalini power. There is also a comparison to the seven chakras of hinduism representing her seven story mansion.

 

[cjforJesus]

I would put it more like this: feelings around that area could if focussed on can become distorted in a person’s conscious thoughts, which does not lend itself to the natural order (the natural order is in itself GOOD). Satan is real and demons are too. They want to lead people away from what is GOOD and so naturally they would extend their participation to anything that could lead away from what is ‘pro-life’ and therefore ‘pro-creation’. The natural order was made GOOD, what comes after is what we do with this natural order, a consequence of how we respond to what is thrown at us.

I don’t generally rely on wikipedia for intellectual insight though I find it curious that one entry there describes kundalini shakti as simply the libido! Gopi Krishnas writings would seem to confirm this as he also said that kundalini is related to the energy of sexual intercourse.

 

[friardchips]

Thanks for the great explanation on contemplative prayer and what is actually is. I would have to disagree though with Sr Mary that contemplation is common or even to be desired. St Teresa of Avila said in “The way of Perfection” that one has to forgo all relationships and exist solely for God.I don’t know that many modern people could actually do that especially if one has children. I am inclined to believe that many of these old writings were written for nuns and monks and other ascetics who were totally removed from the world.

When considering St Teresas “Interior Castle”,I have heard many equate her religious ecstasy to Shakti or a rising of kundalini power. There is also a comparison to the seven chakras of hinduism representing her seven story mansion.

Hi cj, thank you for your welcome participation in this thread!

Certainly, for laity to exist only for our Creator can be hard work - remaining in the world - whereas in a religious environment one would imagine the prayerful environment and spiritual company (and lack of children to look after) would make this walk an easier one. Hence, why people do become Religious, I guess.

But her writings are as meaningful and vital now as they were back then and in any environment today. I haven’t really studied Teresa, only some prayers, but I have experienced the beauty of St. John of the Cross’ writings - neither of these two saints would have been in conflict with the another. I am going to hazard a guess now and say that I think for us she means reserving that special place for our Creator. You remember when Abraham was asked to sacrifice his only child, well, this is all about putting our Creator first. And sometimes our relationships can be on rocky terms with people for the sake of putting Him first, just as long as it is not us closing the door on people for ever. This is personal witness. For a while each day the Christian, I believe, is called to prayer. It is whether we have our headphones on at the time or are open to this call which can be brought into question. But this prayer-time often consists of taking time out from others and our responsibilities in order to spend some private time with He who IS. To meditate on the mysteries of the Rosary is to enter into the mystery of the life of The Word, as one example. Contemplation can follow but not something to be forced. Although if we keep knocking then we will find our food. And that’s what prayer is, in a way, it is food, and just as necessary as clothing and meals and schooling. And trusting, that if we do take time for contemplation, then we will have all those other things as well, just as Abraham was given his child back, alive. People think prayer is only talking, but it is more importantly about listening, or being still, in the presence of our Maker. People as a rule find it a remarkable phenomenon that when worried that taking time out will make less time for everything else, they often find instead, that they have extra time. There is a time and place for all things, even prayer, and every day at that because today is all we have!

 

[friardchips]

I don’t generally rely on wikipedia for intellectual insight though I find it curious that one entry there describes kundalini shakti as simply the libido! Gopi Krishnas writings would seem to confirm this as he also said that kundalini is related to the energy of sexual intercourse.

Anything that is there already is not distortion. Whether or not it has an Eastern name. But marriage is the sacrament in the Church by which sexual intercourse is blessed and practiced. Certainly distorting what is natural, I believe, is contrary to what we understand to be chaste, and rushing the blessing in marriage, that is the union, between man and woman. What people fail to realise, I think, is that the stories related to the religious system in which Yoga is connected came before Christianity, so Christianity is The Fulfilment of all GOOD things spiritual, including the natural order. But not ALL things. As some are not GOOD, but distortions of the Truth, away from GOOD. (There is one story in this Eastern religious system in which I believe expresses this quite well). If there are practices in which Christians are entering into in a way which rejects the Revelation by their physical and spiritual expressions then these actions speak for themselves, or their own selfs - a tree of life cannot also be a tree of death, but a tree of death can lead to what can become our realisation of The Tree of Life!

 

[cjforJesus]

Hi cj, thank you for your welcome participation in this thread!

Certainly, for laity to exist only for our Creator can be hard work - remaining in the world - whereas in a religious environment one would imagine the prayerful environment and spiritual company (and lack of children to look after) would make this walk an easier one. Hence, why people do become Religious, I guess.

But her writings are as meaningful and vital now as they were back then and in any environment today. I haven’t really studied Teresa, only some prayers, but I have experienced the beauty of St. John of the Cross’ writings - neither of these two saints would have been in conflict with the another. I am going to hazard a guess now and say that I think for us she means reserving that special place for our Creator. You remember when Abraham was asked to sacrifice his only child, well, this is all about putting our Creator first. And sometimes our relationships can be on rocky terms with people for the sake of putting Him first, just as long as it is not us closing the door on people for ever. This is personal witness. For a while each day the Christian, I believe, is called to prayer. It is whether we have our headphones on at the time or are open to this call which can be brought into question. But this prayer-time often consists of taking time out from others and our responsibilities in order to spend some private time with He who IS. To meditate on the mysteries of the Rosary is to enter into the mystery of the life of The Word, as one example. Contemplation can follow but not something to be forced. Although if we keep knocking then we will find our food. And that’s what prayer is, in a way, it is food, and just as necessary as clothing and meals and schooling. And trusting, that if we do take time for contemplation, then we will have all those other things as well, just as Abraham was given his child back, alive. People think prayer is only talking, but it is more importantly about listening, or being still, in the presence of our Maker. People as a rule find it a remarkable phenomenon that when worried that taking time out will make less time for everything else, they often find instead, that they have extra time. There is a time and place for all things, even prayer, and every day at that because today is all we have!

But friar,even St Teresa said contemplation is something that cannot be acheived at all.In one writing she said a woman she knew was HOLIER and closer to God than she was and she only prayed vocal prayer! That seems to contradict the idea that people who experience contemplation are holier or more spiritually advanced then those who pray vocally. It is my understanding that God can grant infused wisdom to anyone he chooses.

Actually St Teresa said that the nuns should even ignore family.She was writing to nuns not 21st century people whose lives are cluttered with tons of stuff,and jobs and families and mortgages and debt.

 

[cjforJesus]

I thought in Catholic theology the Tree of Life is Jesus Christ?

 

[friardchips]

But friar,even St Teresa said contemplation is something that cannot be acheived at all.In one writing she said a woman she knew was HOLIER and closer to God than she was and she only prayed vocal prayer! That seems to contradict the idea that people who experience contemplation are holier or more spiritually advanced then those who pray vocally. It is my understanding that God can grant infused wisdom to anyone he chooses.

Hi. Sorry, my name is friardchips. Not friar. I only called you cj because I don’t like typing the name of our Creator, hence why I haven’t used His name recently, and also why I missed out the last part of your username.

Who is holy we can tell by their fruits. And fruits start with prayer. However, we can’t tell what all people do so can’t judge who is holier than who. And why would we want to.

It is true that whoever is chosen is chosen. This doesn’t always fit our ideas of suitability. We can’t maybe achieve contemplation but we can be patient enough to wait, in prayer. And certainly patience is a virtue. And virtues are holy attributes. That is not to say that if you don’t contemplate then you are less holy. I think most people pray aloud sometimes, do we not do this in Church, for a start?! But one can also think about our Creator in the interior of our being all the time, in prayer, but also at many times, if not most of the time, during the day. Nothing contradicts anything else. The chances are that if one is contemplating our Creator all the time then it is because He has willed it, or desires it. Whether that makes a person holier than someone else is a matter not for us, I think.

 

[agnes_therese]

But friar,even St Teresa said contemplation is something that cannot be acheived at all.In one writing she said a woman she knew was HOLIER and closer to God than she was and she only prayed vocal prayer! That seems to contradict the idea that people who experience contemplation are holier or more spiritually advanced then those who pray vocally. It is my understanding that God can grant infused wisdom to anyone he chooses.

Actually St Teresa said that the nuns should even ignore family.She was writing to nuns not 21st century people whose lives are cluttered with tons of stuff,and jobs and families and mortgages and debt.

cjforJesus, I am a Secular Discalced Carmelite, and have read and studied St. Teresa for years. You are taking some of her comments out of context.

For example, the nun who only prayed vocal prayer – St. Teresa was NOT saying that no one can attain contemplation. She was giving this as an example, so that those who have trouble meditating (in another place, she mentions those with “minds like wild horses”) would not be discouraged if they could only make vocal prayer.

Yes, she was writing for nuns. But most of her teaching on prayer can be followed by anyone who wishes to do so.

 

[friardchips]

Actually St Teresa said that the nuns should even ignore family.She was writing to nuns not 21st century people whose lives are cluttered with tons of stuff,and jobs and families and mortgages and debt.

Then you have got anything to worry about!

People write for different people which doesn’t rule out everything a person writes. She is not going to write to her nuns and tell them to do something which is not possible for them. Similarly, she is not going to write to a mother with children and remind her to always wear her veil. But spiritual writings are across the board for all to digest. It sounds as if making time is the issue here, not what is possible, and what isn’t.

The above poster’s comments explains with more clarity.

 

[cjforJesus]

cjforJesus, I am a Secular Discalced Carmelite, and have read and studied St. Teresa for years. You are taking some of her comments out of context.

For example, the nun who only prayed vocal prayer – St. Teresa was NOT saying that no one can attain contemplation. She was giving this as an example, so that those who have trouble meditating (in another place, she mentions those with “minds like wild horses”) would not be discouraged if they could only make vocal prayer.

Yes, she was writing for nuns. But most of her teaching on prayer can be followed by anyone who wishes to do so.

Yes and St Teresa says that one has to totally abandon the world and in this day and age it seems impossible.

I only know one person who you may say had a contemplative experience.This woman was extremely compassionate, modest , kind and totally obedient to the Church. She related her experience to me once though I don’t think she told many others or even a spiritual advisor. The experience was so terrifying and unexpected yet at the same time she was filled with the knowledge of God’s love for her. She was at a loss for words but she said later she prayed that it would never happen again. She was granted this one consolation and I was with her the week she died.Her death was drawn out and painful.A
huge tumor was growing in her chest and not only prevented her from eating but was slowly suffocating her. She suffered though and accepted it and I was given the knowledge to realize that her silent suffering released many souls from purgatory.

 

[Contarini]

From what I have read the point of yoga is to awaken some alleged serpent power which lies dormant in our lower spine.

This does indeed play a very large role in polemical Christian descriptions of yoga. And yes, kundalini is part of yoga philosophy.

I seriously doubt that God put some weird psychic power in our bums.

Do you doubt this because you are a Christian, or because you are a modern Westerner?

In other words, as soon as the word “weird” enters the conversation, I distrust your judgments, because they appear to be proceeding not from Christian faith but from Enlightenment rationalism.

Christianity is about as weird as they come.

Edwin

 

[cjforJesus]

This does indeed play a very large role in polemical Christian descriptions of yoga. And yes, kundalini is part of yoga philosophy.

Do you doubt this because you are a Christian, or because you are a modern Westerner?

In other words, as soon as the word “weird” enters the conversation, I distrust your judgments, because they appear to be proceeding not from Christian faith but from Enlightenment rationalism.

Christianity is about as weird as they come.

Edwin

No I doubt this because Jesus told us the way to the Father and he did not mention any hidden serpents in our rear. On the contrary many equate this feminine power with the serpent of Genesis which according to the bible is satan the deceiver.

From what I can discern we have an alleged “power” that when awakened cannot be controlled(not my words but Gopi Krishna)

This alleged power causes psychosis in many people and in others it causes hallucinations of a visual and auditory nature.(the psychosis according to Carl Jung)

This power may cause people to jerk uncontrolably and emit animal sounds in a supposed attempt to “purify them”.

This same power can be awakened through tantric sex, especially sodomy.