YOGA...ooer!

[friardchips]

Are you aware that chastity is a form of yoga?

Evening. Yes, so I’m led to believe. But what also exists, as a form of Yoga, is Tantra. Hence, why I spoke earlier about “GOOD roots” and “strands”.

In Tantra, does the philosophy/practice mention/include any instruction about waiting until marriage before entering into the realms of sexual arousal?

 

[christofirst]

Thank you.

Yes, that is my point!

I can see your logic with this answer.

Sorry to hear this, it sounds painful. No one is judging your motive of seeking remedy for pain. This is an assessment of Yoga from a spiritual perspective.

St. Paul also said to ‘discern the spirits’, so it is best that we don’t get into Bible study for now, but we could come back to it.

I have underlined a part in your paragraph above because I just want to ask whether: after having discovered these positions were Yoga positions, whether you sought to find out if there were other alternatives to doing Yoga; whether these stretches were only attributed to Yoga by practitioners in the Middle East, but in fact, were and are only simple stretches that anyone can and might do in the morning without learning Yoga; whether at any point you sought to find out if the practice was compatible with our Christian faith before you delved in deeper.

You make sense, yes. I just find it interesting that you suffer from distractions in prayer - are you saying the distraction IS because of the pain and this stops you from being able to concentrate?

It should be apparent from the books I have mentioned here that I have indeed made an effort to ensure that my practice of yoga is compatible with my Catholic faith. These are Catholic authors, priests in obedience to authority.

The question comes up repeatedly: Why not look for something that might be just as effective as yoga? To that I would ask, why reinvent the wheel? Yoga has a centuries’ head start over other methods, which in the end are usually just imitations with new names (like the book that led me to yoga). Yes, I can call it something else, but as they say, if it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck… well, you know the rest.

You mention looking for other forms of stretching from other places. Yoga evolved over the centuries in just this way: trial and error: this position is effective, while this position is not. Again why reinvent the wheel? Because of the religious baggage that yoga picked up along the way? Some of the spiritual aspects are indeed worthwhile and are worth keeping. These are the** “genuine practices of meditation from the great non-Christian religions”** - that line from the Vatican document that some here would prefer to ignore or explain away.

Then there are the notions from the other religions which are incompatible with our Catholic faith, such as reincarnation, multiple deities, etc. These are the ideas which the Vatican truly warns us about, and these I consciously reject.

As to why I am scatterbrained, I suppose there are several reasons. Pain is indeed a distraction. Also, years of television, computers, and modern media which tend to erode an already weak attention span; these, I think, are factors as well. Yoga helps to calm my worried mind (did I mention I worry a lot?), focus my attention, assist the God-given healing capacity of my body, and so facilitate prayer. Why should I look for something else?

 

[friardchips]

It should be apparent from the books I have mentioned here that I have indeed made an effort to ensure that my practice of yoga is compatible with my Catholic faith. These are Catholic authors, priests in obedience to authority.

The question comes up repeatedly: Why not look for something that might be just as effective as yoga? To that I would ask, why reinvent the wheel? Yoga has a centuries’ head start over other methods, which in the end are usually just imitations with new names (like the book that led me to yoga). Yes, I can call it something else, but as they say, if it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck… well, you know the rest.

You mention looking for other forms of stretching from other places. Yoga evolved over the centuries in just this way: trial and error: this position is effective, while this position is not. Again why reinvent the wheel? Because of the religious baggage that yoga picked up along the way? Some of the spiritual aspects are indeed worthwhile and are worth keeping. These are the** “genuine practices of meditation from the great non-Christian religions”** - that line from the Vatican document that some here would prefer to ignore or explain away.

Then there are the notions from the other religions which are incompatible with our Catholic faith, such as reincarnation, multiple deities, etc. These are the ideas which the Vatican truly warns us about, and these I consciously reject.

As to why I am scatterbrained, I suppose there are several reasons. Pain is indeed a distraction. Also, years of television, computers, and modern media which tend to erode an already weak attention span; these, I think, are factors as well. Yoga helps to calm my worried mind (did I mention I worry a lot?), focus my attention, assist the God-given healing capacity of my body, and so facilitate prayer. Why should I look for something else?

Thanks. So, do you think you are doing Yoga AND praying, or, praying VIA Yoga?

If you were advised by all Church authority not to practice Yoga, and there were no ‘Catholic’ books endorsing or teaching Yoga, would you do Yoga anyway because you want to, regardless?

(to note: I’ll repost all old dialogue on the subject of the line you’ve cited from the Vatican document in due course so we do not go over ground already covered).

 

[Michael_Mayo]

Evening. Yes, so I’m led to believe. But what also exists, as a form of Yoga, is Tantra. Hence, why I spoke earlier about “GOOD roots” and “strands”.

In Tantra, does the philosophy/practice mention/include any instruction about waiting until marriage before entering into the realms of sexual arousal?

It doesn’t matter. You said, “This includes all Yoga, otherwise a specific type of Yoga would have been specified.” Therefore also chastity (Brahmacharya (ब्रह्मचर्य): continence) , as it is a form of yoga along with:

Ahiṃsā (अहिंसा): Nonviolence
Satya (सत्य): truthfulness
Asteya (अस्तेय): not stealing
Kṣamā (क्षमा): forgiveness[10]
Dhṛti (धृति): fortitude
Dayā (दया): compassion[10]
Ārjava (आर्जव): non-hypocrisy, sincerity[11]
Mitāhāra (मितहार): measured diet
Śauca (शौच): purity, cleanliness

By your own statement you are obliged to hold all these as dangerous and reject them since they are all forms of yoga.

Or, as I said earlier, qualify what you mean by yoga. If you just want it to mean Tantra, fine, say so. If you want it to mean Hatha, that is different. But no,. you refused saying, " “This includes all Yoga, otherwise a specific type of Yoga would have been specified.” You are clearly in error. All forms include these ten Yamas and Niyamas.

 

[christofirst]

Thanks. So, do you think you are doing Yoga AND praying, or, praying VIA Yoga?

I’ve never considered the distinction, but I think both are correct. I am praying while doing yoga, and since yoga helps facilitate this time of prayer, “via” is appropriate as well.

If you were advised by all Church authority not to practice Yoga, and there were no ‘Catholic’ books endorsing or teaching Yoga, would you do Yoga anyway because you want to, regardless?

Were that to ever happen, I would do as the Church instructs.

(to note: I’ll repost all old dialogue on the subject of the line you’ve cited from the Vatican document in due course so we do not go over ground already covered).

There’s probably no need, as anyone who is truly interested can easily look back through this thread. Those who are for or against the idea of a Christian practicing yoga will most likely continue to focus only on those parts of the document which they see as supporting their position anyway.

Michael’s post which precedes mine is worth a response, however, and I look forward to reading what you might have to say.

 

[friardchips]

It doesn’t matter. You said, “This includes all Yoga, otherwise a specific type of Yoga would have been specified.” Therefore also chastity (Brahmacharya (ब्रह्मचर्य): continence) , as it is a form of yoga along with:

Ahiṃsā (अहिंसा): Nonviolence
Satya (सत्य): truthfulness
Asteya (अस्तेय): not stealing
Kṣamā (क्षमा): forgiveness[10]
Dhṛti (धृति): fortitude
Dayā (दया): compassion[10]
Ārjava (आर्जव): non-hypocrisy, sincerity[11]
Mitāhāra (मितहार): measured diet
Śauca (शौच): purity, cleanliness

By your own statement you are obliged to hold all these as dangerous and reject them since they are all forms of yoga.

Or, as I said earlier, qualify what you mean by yoga. If you just want it to mean Tantra, fine, say so. If you want it to mean Hatha, that is different. But no,. you refused saying, " “This includes all Yoga, otherwise a specific type of Yoga would have been specified.” You are clearly in error. All forms include these ten Yamas and Niyamas.

Thank you for this list, it is informative actually.

My point raised about Tantra, stems from my post(s) regarding “strands” from the “GOOD root” line of reasoning and does seem to lead on organically to Pope Francis’ statement - it all flows a sound line of reasoning, IMO. And clearly not “in error” as sound reasoning is not full of errors.

Thank you for at least picking up on this even if you can’t agree.

And it appears, that the last question I posed also naturally follows on from this line of highlighting contradictions, from thought-out reasoning, and so still stands:

‘In Tantra, does the philosophy/practice mention/include any instruction about waiting until marriage before entering into the realms of sexual arousal?’

 

[friardchips]

I’ve never considered the distinction, but I think both are correct. I am praying while doing yoga, and since yoga helps facilitate this time of prayer, “via” is appropriate as well.

Okay, well talk about making this even more complicated! I was kind of hoping you might say one or the other!

Were that to ever happen, I would do as the Church instructs.

Interesting. Thank you for answering.

There’s probably no need, as anyone who is truly interested can easily look back through this thread. Those who are for or against the idea of a Christian practicing yoga will most likely continue to focus only on those parts of the document which they see as supporting their position anyway.

Does seem to be the way so far. I think you’re probably right. IMO, regarding authoritative documents, we have to get specific, otherwise we can all use them for our own means, as you said, rather than for the reasons for which they were written - I don’t think a lot of the time this is a particularly easy process.

Michael’s post which precedes mine is worth a response, however, and I look forward to reading what you might have to say.

Both yours and Michael’s participation is always welcome and I look forward to both your posts.

Need to give your post more thought.

 

[cjforJesus]

Thank you for this list, it is informative actually.

My point raised about Tantra, stems from my post(s) regarding “strands” from the “GOOD root” line of reasoning and does seem to lead on organically to Pope Francis’ statement - it all flows a sound line of reasoning, IMO. And clearly not “in error” as sound reasoning is not full of errors.

Thank you for at least picking up on this even if you can’t agree.

And it appears, that the last question I posed also naturally follows on from this line of highlighting contradictions, from thought-out reasoning, and so still stands:

‘In Tantra, does the philosophy/practice mention/include any instruction about waiting until marriage before entering into the realms of sexual arousal?’

Friardchips, I respect your opinions and insights,but one can argue finer points with the realization that ALL yoga has the specific goal of arousing an occult power called kundalini or shakti.

In post number 4 you made a vague allusion to this power so you are very aware that it is what true yoga is about.

Michael said on another thread that he is not certain that these things such as nadis and chakras exist.If he is not practicing the philosophy and he does not deny Jesus or the Catholic faith then his stretching and quiet time would not really be yoga. He may call it yoga in the broad sense but he knows it is just stretching for health.

Heck when I was a kid I was incredibly flexible like most kids and we would wrap our legs around the back of our head and do all sorts of other stretching poses just for fun. Many of them would be considered yoga poses but they are just stretching.They cannot inadvertently awaken an occult power and are just play.

 

[friardchips]

Friardchips, I respect your opinions and insights,but one can argue finer points with the realization that ALL yoga has the specific goal of arousing an occult power called kundalini or shakti.

In post number 4 you made a vague allusion to this power so you are very aware that it is what true yoga is about.

Michael said on another thread that he is not certain that these things such as nadis and chakras exist.If he is not practicing the philosophy and he does not deny Jesus or the Catholic faith then his stretching and quiet time would not really be yoga. He may call it yoga in the broad sense but he knows it is just stretching for health.

Heck when I was a kid I was incredibly flexible like most kids and we would wrap our legs around the back of our head and do all sorts of other stretching poses just for fun. Many of them would be considered yoga poses but they are just stretching.They cannot inadvertently awaken an occult power and are just play.

Thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut so far! I am confident in my reasoning up to this point, and have already taken into consideration the things you’ve mentioned, and I am aware of my position on the matter, although I have no problem with being reminded, and regard my line of reasoning and the last question I posed as valid, and therefore think it is relevant for the posters here to think about. If they follow this line of reasoning back to quite a few posts ago my argument I think is worth consideration even if it eventually turns out to be non-consequential.

 

[Michael_Mayo]

Thank you for this list, it is informative actually.

My point raised about Tantra, stems from my post(s) regarding “strands” from the “GOOD root” line of reasoning and does seem to lead on organically to Pope Francis’ statement - it all flows a sound line of reasoning, IMO. And clearly not “in error” as sound reasoning is not full of errors.

Thank you for at least picking up on this even if you can’t agree.

And it appears, that the last question I posed also naturally follows on from this line of highlighting contradictions, from thought-out reasoning, and so still stands:

‘In Tantra, does the philosophy/practice mention/include any instruction about waiting until marriage before entering into the realms of sexual arousal?’

Friarchips, your post about Tantra only deals with Tantra, one of the many forms of yoga. Yet you maintain that the Vatican documents deal with ALL FORMS of yoga. That would have to include those I listed which are clearly virtuous. Your “point” raised about Tantra is irrelevant as it does not pertain to all forms of yoga. I do not know or care what Tantra teaches about marriage. I am not interested in that form of yoga. Your bringing it up here only obfuscates.

 

[friardchips]

Friarchips, your post about Tantra only deals with Tantra, one of the many forms of yoga. Yet you maintain that the Vatican documents deal with ALL FORMS of yoga. That would have to include those I listed which are clearly virtuous. Your “point” raised about Tantra is irrelevant as it does not pertain to all forms of yoga. I do not know or care what Tantra teaches about marriage. I am not interested in that form of yoga. Your bringing it up here only obfuscates.

There are virtues which go to the core, real virtues, and surface virtues, by which I mean, good-sounding names given for apparent qualities that are for effect only or are only surface deep because in other ways this or that apparent virtue is then unbalanced with hypocrisy. When the Roman Catholic Church speaks of virtue, these virtues are based on the life of the one who calls us to virtue, fruit known by those who believe in and follow Him. People can do good works and have an inbuilt and educated conscience which I think is universal, not just for the baptised, a collective conscience, but true virtue is something over and above when based on the life directly from the one who gave it to us. So this leads me onto the subject of hypocrisy and contradiction: if all Yoga connects to one root, and one strand of Yoga promotes apparent ‘chastity’ yet another promotes sexual discovery, then either the original root must be unsound or the teaching itself stemming from whatever its root is, must be flawed.

So again:

‘In Tantra, does the philosophy/practice mention/include any instruction about waiting until marriage before entering into the realms of sexual arousal?’

 

[Michael_Mayo]

There are virtues which go to the core, real virtues, and surface virtues, by which I mean, good-sounding names given for apparent qualities that are for effect only or are only surface deep because in other ways this or that apparent virtue is then unbalanced with hypocrisy. When the Roman Catholic Church speaks of virtue, these virtues are based on the life of the one who calls us to virtue, fruit known by those who believe in and follow Him. People can do good works and have an inbuilt and educated conscience which I think is universal, not just for the baptised, a collective conscience, but true virtue is something over and above when based on the life directly from the one who gave it to us. So this leads me onto the subject of hypocrisy and contradiction: if all Yoga connects to one root, and one strand of Yoga promotes apparent ‘chastity’ yet another promotes sexual discovery, then either the original root must be unsound or the teaching itself stemming from whatever its root is, must be flawed.

So again:

‘In Tantra, does the philosophy/practice mention/include any instruction about waiting until marriage before entering into the realms of sexual arousal?’

Again, I have no idea nor do I care.

You said, " ** if** all Yoga connects to one root, and one strand of Yoga promotes apparent ‘chastity’ yet another promotes sexual discovery, then either the original root must be unsound or the teaching itself stemming from whatever its root is, must be flawed.

Let us assume that Tantra promotes promiscuity, certainly an unsound teaching. It reminds me of the Free Spirit Movement within Christianity. Does that mean the root of Christianity is flawed. Certainly not. Does that mean that everything that stems from Christinity is perfect? certainly not. Many forms of Protestantism prove that. Your desire to attribute guilt by association is misguided.

 

[friardchips]

Edited.

 

[friardchips]

Christofirst, perhaps you could please answer - bearing in mind my reasoning here:

‘There are virtues which go to the core, real virtues, and surface virtues, by which I mean, good-sounding names given for apparent qualities that are for effect only or are only surface deep because in other ways this or that apparent virtue is then unbalanced with hypocrisy. When the Roman Catholic Church speaks of virtue, these virtues are based on the life of the one who calls us to virtue, fruit known by those who believe in and follow Him. People can do good works and have an inbuilt and educated conscience which I think is universal, not just for the baptised, a collective conscience, but true virtue is something over and above when based on the life directly from the one who gave it to us. So this leads me onto the subject of hypocrisy and contradiction: if all Yoga connects to one root, and one strand of Yoga promotes apparent ‘chastity’ yet another promotes sexual discovery, then either the original root must be unsound or the teaching itself stemming from whatever its root is, must be flawed.’

• this question:

‘In Tantra, does the philosophy/practice mention/include any instruction about waiting until marriage before entering into the realms of sexual arousal?’

 

[Contarini]

Your false assumption is that all yoga comes from one root–whatever that even means.

Yoga is a set of practices. It can be used by many different philosophies in many different ways.

Why assume that it must all really be one thing? There could quite easily be good and bad forms of yoga just as there are good and bad forms of most other things–indeed, most forms of yoga might be capable of being used in good or bad ways.

Tantric sex is a fairly rare practice, and when practiced (“left-handed tantra”) it depends precisely on violating normal taboos.

Edwin

 

[friardchips]

Your false assumption is that all yoga comes from one root–whatever that even means.

Yoga is a set of practices. It can be used by many different philosophies in many different ways.

Why assume that it must all really be one thing? There could quite easily be good and bad forms of yoga just as there are good and bad forms of most other things–indeed, most forms of yoga might be capable of being used in good or bad ways.

Tantric sex is a fairly rare practice, and when practiced (“left-handed tantra”) it depends precisely on violating normal taboos.

Edwin

Here’s your root:

From a Yoga website: hinduwisdom.info/Yoga_and_Hindu_Philosophy.htm :

*"Without the practice of yoga, How could knowledge Set the atman (soul) free? asks the Yogatatva Upanishad. Yoga: union with the ultimate. **Carl G. Jung the eminent Swiss ***psychologist, described yoga as ‘one of the greatest things the human mind has ever created.’ Yoga sutra consists of two words only: yogash chitta-critti-nirodah, which may be translated: “Yoga is the cessation of agitation of the consciousness.”

The word yoga is derived from the root yuj, which means to unite or to join together. The practice of yoga may lead to the union of the human with the divine - all within the self.** The aim of yoga is the transformation of human beings from their natural form to a perfected form**. The Yogic practices originated in the primordial depths of India’s past. From this early period the inner attitudes and disciplines which were later identified and given orderly expression by Patanjali.

• to add here, that this does not appear to be in line with Christian understanding. Our only action is to approach our Maker in prayer, but the meeting of Maker with His created ones, is not by the power of self, but by He who IS.

According to Patanjali’s Yoga Sutra, the classical text on yoga, the purpose of yoga is to lead to a silence of the mind (1.2). This silence is the prerequisite for the mind to be able to accurately reflect objective reality without its own subjective distortions. Yoga does not create this reality, which is above the mind, but only prepares the mind to apprehend it, **by assisting in the transformation of the mind **

– **from an ordinary mind **full of noise, like a whole army of frenzied and drunken monkeys – to a still mind.

This too, seems to be outside of Christian understanding, because the Christian is not called to alter our mind state via any means, and are not required to perform any ritual in order to do this. We can still the mind, but this is not “transformation”. We ourselves do not do the work, rather, the Christian puts the heart and mind into His hands, in His control. This is not ‘achieved’, or at least, not by the self.

Jean Varenne author of Yoga and Indian Philosophy

, observes: “The only remaining testimony to the prestigious civilization of ancient Egypt lies buried in archaeological remains; *which meant that **the inhabitants of the Nile valley, converted to Islam thirteen centuries ago, had to wait for Champollion to decipher the hieroglyphics before they could know anything of the beliefs of their distant ancestors. Yet during all this time Hindu families continued, and still continue today, to venerate the selfsame Vishnu ***who is celebrated in the archaic hymns of the Rig Veda…”

Yoga is an integral part of the Hindu religion. There is a saying: “There is no Yoga without Hinduism and no Hinduism without Yoga." The country of origin of Yoga is undoubtedly India, where for many hundreds of years it has been a part of man’s activities directed towards higher spiritual achievements. **The Yoga Philosophy is peculiar to the Hindus, and no trace of it is found in any other nation, ancient or modern. **It was the fruit of the highest intellectual and spiritual development. The history of Yoga is long and ancient. The earliest Vedic texts, the Brahmanas, bear witness to the existence of ascetic practices (tapas) and the vedic Samhitas contain some references, to ascetics, namely the Munis or Kesins and the Vratyas.’

There was your root for Yoga, so again, according to my line of reasoning here:

‘There are virtues which go to the core, real virtues, and surface virtues, by which I mean, good-sounding names given for apparent qualities that are for effect only or are only surface deep because in other ways this or that apparent virtue is then unbalanced with hypocrisy. When the Roman Catholic Church speaks of virtue, these virtues are based on the life of the one who calls us to virtue, fruit known by those who believe in and follow Him. People can do good works and have an inbuilt and educated conscience which I think is universal, not just for the baptised, a collective conscience, but true virtue is something over and above when based on the life directly from the one who gave it to us. So this leads me onto the subject of hypocrisy and contradiction: if all Yoga connects to one root, and one strand of Yoga promotes apparent ‘chastity’ yet another promotes sexual discovery, then either the original root must be unsound or the teaching itself stemming from whatever its root is, must be flawed.’

• I pose this question as a result:

‘In Tantra, does the philosophy/practice mention/include any instruction about waiting until marriage before entering into the realms of sexual arousal?’

 

[agnes_therese]

• I pose this question as a result:
  ‘In Tantra, does the philosophy/practice mention/include any instruction about waiting until marriage before entering into the realms of sexual arousal?’

Since none of us here were talking about practicing Tantric yoga ourselves, and you’re the only one who seems to be interested in it, it seems logical for you to be the one to go hunting for an answer.

 

[friardchips]

Since none of us here were talking about practicing Tantric yoga ourselves, and you’re the only one who seems to be interested in it, it seems logical for you to be the one to go hunting for an answer.

Try following the dialogue (a tip ).

 

[friardchips]

Since none of us here were talking about practicing Tantric yoga ourselves, and you’re the only one who seems to be interested in it, it seems logical for you to be the one to go hunting for an answer.

…please.

 

[agnes_therese]

How typical of you.