You can't be both a Catholic and a Feminist

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Kev9,
I can’t keep correcting you when you restate yourself and say something completely different. You can’t keep reinventing your opinion every other post. I could have quoted you a dozen times about how you have contradicted yourself in this this thread, but honestly, it is too late. I have already told you that I believe that TRUE feminism is the same feminism that JP2 supported. Would you prefer that Republicans and Democrats reorganize themselves into a gazillion different denominations so that we can know exactly where everyone stands? Like I say—its an IDEOLOGY!!! I can’t keep arguing with you just because you can’t stand being proved wrong. Cuz face it Kev, you’ve been proved wrong. Start another thread stating what you are REALLY trying to say … “Radical feminist (or Feminazi feminists) cannot be Catholics too!” There I would agree with you. Please respect us where we differ in ideology with others.
 
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beckyann2597:
Kev9,
I can’t keep correcting you when you restate yourself and say something completely different. You can’t keep reinventing your opinion every other post. I could have quoted you a dozen times about how you have contidicted yourself in this this thread, but honestly, it is too late. I have already told you that I believe that TRUE feminism is the same feminism that JP2 supported. Would you prefer that Republicans and Democrats reorganize themselves into a gazillion different denominations so that we can know exactly where everyone stands? Like I say—its an IDEOLOGY!!! I can’t keep arguing with you just because you can’t stand being proved wrong. Cuz face it Kev, you’ve been proved wrong. Start another thread stating what you are REALLY trying to say … “Radical feminist (or Feminazi feminists) cannot be Catholics too!” There I would agree with you there. Please respect us where we differ in ideology with others.
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I have never changed my opinion on this thread at all. You have just have just made many incorrect assumptions about my views .

I still don’t know what REAL feminism is. oh well.
 
ok as per my other post here is a list of the all the forms of feminsim

Which one of these are ok with the catholic church. Which one of these is True feminism. Please help me. Point to one that I can support as a catholic. maybe pop feminism is ok… you know… buffy the vampire slayer !

thanks.
Egalitarian forms:
equity feminism
individualist feminism (also known as libertarian feminism) ** liberal feminism
Gynocentric forms:
cultural feminism
gender feminism
pop feminism
radical feminism
Belief in oppression by patriarchy:
anarcha-feminism
French feminism
radical feminism
Belief in oppression by capitalism:
Marxist feminism
socialist feminism
Differences are solely cultural, not biological:
Amazon feminism
psychoanalytic feminism
Segregationalist:
lesbian feminism (Lesbian separatism)
separatist feminism
anti-Western:
third-world feminism
post-colonial feminism
pro-sex feminism (also known as sexually liberal feminism, sex-positive feminism)
[edit]
Subtypes of feminism
Amazon feminism
Anarcha-Feminism
cultural feminism
ecofeminism
equity feminism
existentialist feminism
feminazism
French feminism
gender feminism
individualist feminism (also known as libertarian feminism)
lesbian feminism
liberal feminism
male feminism or men’s feminism
Marxist feminism (also known as socialist feminism)
material feminism
pop feminism
post-colonial feminism
postmodern feminism which includes queer theory
pro-sex feminism (also known as sexually liberal feminism, sex-positive feminism)
psychoanalytic feminism
radical feminism
separatist feminism
socialist feminism
spiritual feminism
standpoint feminism
third-world feminism
transnational feminism
transfeminism
womanism
Certain actions, approaches and people can also be described as proto-feminist or post-feminist.
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oh and here is one thing that I read on that site that makes me think that MOST forms of feminism are not good.

“However, criticism of these efforts as unable to salvage corrupt church structures and philosophies continues. Some argue that Mary, with her status as mother and virgin, and as traditionally the main role model for women, sets women up to aspire to an impossible ideal and also thus has negative consequences on human sense of identity and sexuality”
 
It always comes down to the definition. If you want to call yourself a feminist and your a Catholic you must always be trying to understand what it means to be a feminist and making sure your not straying from your Catholism. But one needs to alwys do that. I don’t think its a bad thing if Catholics try to take a bid on the word feminist. You just don’t want your feminism to get detached from your Catholism.

Another question, what does it mean to be a Catholic and a feminist to you?
 
kev7 said:
“However, criticism of these efforts as unable to salvage corrupt church structures and philosophies continues. Some argue that Mary, with her status as mother and virgin, and as traditionally the main role model for women, sets women up to aspire to an impossible ideal and also thus has negative consequences on human sense of identity and sexuality”
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Impossible idea, why not state the obvious. As a man I feel the Jesus has set up an impossible ideal for me. One should know that the ideal is impossible, but one also needs to know that it’s ok to not meet that goal. It is still better to come close to the mark as possible as one can than to just chuck it and go in any direction. I’d rather live up to that ideal than to live down to whatever is the first impulse that come to mind. I guess you have to have your faith in relativism if you agree with the part in the quote about negative consequences.
 
Kev,
This is my two cents.

I am a woman, and I don’t call myself a feminist for the very reasons that you brought up in the bucket scenario. I have many Catholic friends that call themselves feminists, though, and I don’t think this is wrong. We share the teachings of the Catholic Church and have very similar ideas. Neither them nor me are more or less Catholic.

You seem to think you are right and take great PRIDE in this.

You live in an ideology that everything should be so defined and have a neat little place on this physical and temporary plane we call life. In this, your argument is a fallacy. We are so limited by speech that most abstract ideals cannot and will not be defined in our flash-in-the-pan existance.

Sex is a dangerous bucket too. Do I have to be an asexual creature just because there are so many bad apples in the bucket? I am married and I have every right to be a sexual creature, but just because I enjoy a conjugal relationship doesn’t mean I participate in deviant beavior.

You seem to manipulate and use words to your advantage when you see the oppurtunity, and I will also state that you are not the only one doing this.

Finally, in raising such a volatile point, you invite arguments from passionate people. If you didn’t want people to disagree with your opinions, you shouldn’t have posted this as a question for discussion in the first place.
 
kev7,

We keep going back to the main problem here. You on one hand acknowledge that there is no one defintion of feminism–which allows for those here who believe in the one core belief of feminism without your extraneous examples–while on the other hand insisting that only your definition is ok.

I have a real problem with you insisting that people who have given *their * definition, which disassociates itself with your examples, are either not really feminists, or must lump themselves in with your definition regardless.

Groups are not homogeneous! You cannot stereotype and tar an entire group with one brush. I cannot make a claim that someone can’t be a Democrat because they are pro-life.

In the end in fact, if you can make your argument the standard, then I can legitimately set up my own standard and make the claim that YOU can’t be Catholic because there are people in your parish, with whom you associate and worship, who don’t believe in the Real Presence, or the Church’s teaching on contraception, or whatever other teaching you might like to name. Obviously you can’t be following all of Church teaching if you are associated with some of these bad apples in the bucket.

Kev, it’s time to acknowledge that I can qualify my description of myself in any way, just as you can. I can say that I am truly a feminist in the sense of believing in the equal dignity of women–but do not accept any of your examples–and that I am fully and completely Catholic.

Peace,
 
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kev7:
…I still don’t know what REAL feminism is. oh well.
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If you don’t know what a thing is, how can you possibly hold that a person can not possibly be both a Catholic and that thing, as per the title of this thread?
 
This thread has been beaten to death. I am giving it up. Good luck to everyone trying to wrestle this. God Bless–
 
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beckyann2597:
I actually want those choices. I am a stay at home mom and my husband supports me 100%. But what if something should happen to my husband and I was left to raise my children alone? I would really like to be assured that I won’t have to give my measurements before I take a job as a secretary, or that I will be paid the same amount with benefits that a man in my same employment position is. True, some women have different ideas than me about what constitutes equality. That doesn’t keep me from appreciating what progress has been made, nor does it keep me from trying to fix what is not right.
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Keyword - forcing
 
OK, if I am following kev7’s arguments, then I cannot call myself a pro-life Catholic either, because pro-life means different things to different people, and not all of them are in line with Catholic teaching. For example, before the last presidential election, National Right to Life issued a statement that called George W. Bush a “great pro-life president”. My definition of pro-life excludes belief in the death penalty, so I would argue that Bush is not truly pro-life, since he favors the death penalty.

So, since there are different definitions of “pro-life”, and they don’t all agree with Catholic teaching, then I expect kev7 will not be calling himself a pro-life Catholic. Is that right, kev7?
 
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buffalo:
Yeah, the early feminists were OK with the term abortion. That wasn’t winning the public over so they changed it to pro-choice, and boy did we fall for it. We changed it back to pro-death and they don’t like it at all.
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This misunderstanding of early feminist history drives the pro-choice movement. Thank you, Joseph Bilodeau, for providing the quotes that refute this misconception.
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kev7:
Who is to say what REAL feminism is? There are already several posts on here that suggest that even the early feminsts are just as bad as the ones today.
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This poster was mistaken. Please see Joseph Bilodeau’s post with many quotes from early feminists who were radically AGAINST abortion.

Further perpetuating the myth that all feminists support abortion and that abortion is necessary for women’s equality continues to confuse women who believe in the equal dignity of the sexes. They already hear from pro-choice organizations that believing in equal rights, i.e. feminism, and being pro-life are opposites, and we do them a disservice by buying into this ourselves.
 
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ElizabethAnne:
This misunderstanding of early feminist history drives the pro-choice movement. Thank you, Joseph Bilodeau, for providing the quotes that refute this misconception.

This poster was mistaken. Please see Joseph Bilodeau’s post with many quotes from early feminists who were radically AGAINST abortion.

Further perpetuating the myth that all feminists support abortion and that abortion is necessary for women’s equality continues to confuse women who believe in the equal dignity of the sexes. They already hear from pro-choice organizations that believing in equal rights, i.e. feminism, and being pro-life are opposites, and we do them a disservice by buying into this ourselves.
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The thing I observe is many feminists go well beyond equality and dignity (which is Catholic teaching anyway) to sameness, which is not Catholic teaching.
 
Catholic and Feminist: Can One Be Both? **ELIZABETH FOX-GENOVESE
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**Until we can answer this, we will find it difficult to think constructively about the prior question of whether it is possible simultaneously to be both Catholic and feminist. Many of us, I suspect, think the answer to this question should be “yes,” if only because we believe ourselves to be both. But knowing that others perceive irreconcilable conflicts between Catholicism and feminism, even the most optimistic of us is likely to pause. For we do know that even if we hope to reconcile the claims of Catholicism and feminism within our own beliefs and lives, most Catholics and most feminists would insist that such reconciliation is difficult if not impossible…
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On the face of it, many recent Catholic statements about the nature, dignity, and rights of women appear to have much in common with feminism. But, in this case, as in many others, everything depends upon the meaning we ascribe to the words Catholicism and feminism, and today the meaning of both is hotly contested. catholiceducation.org/articles/feminism/fe0025.html
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**the feminist connection at the US bishops’ conference

** A few days ago I mentioned the no-nonsense edit handed down by Teresa Kettelkamp, the executive director of the USCCB Office of Child and Youth Protection, who tells all American bishops what they must do-- and do it now!

Teresa Kettelkamp, who came to the USCCB from the Illinois State Police, is also a member of the advisory board for the Center for Women and Policing.

Would you like to know more about the Center for Women and Policing? It’s a division of the Feminist Majority Foundation.

But when you hear about the Feminist Majority Foundation in the news, the topic usually isn’t police work. Usually it’s abortion.

Led by Eleanor Smeal, the Feminist Majority Foundation is at the forefront in the political battle for legalized abortion on demand.

And Teresa Kettelkamp, who works with this group, is now telling the American Catholic bishops how to behave.

more…
 
buffalo said:
the feminist connection at the US bishops’ conference

A few days ago I mentioned the no-nonsense edit handed down by Teresa Kettelkamp, the executive director of the USCCB Office of Child and Youth Protection, who tells all American bishops what they must do-- and do it now!

Teresa Kettelkamp, who came to the USCCB from the Illinois State Police, is also a member of the advisory board for the Center for Women and Policing.

Would you like to know more about the Center for Women and Policing? It’s a division of the Feminist Majority Foundation.

But when you hear about the Feminist Majority Foundation in the news, the topic usually isn’t police work. Usually it’s abortion.

Led by Eleanor Smeal, the Feminist Majority Foundation is at the forefront in the political battle for legalized abortion on demand.

And Teresa Kettelkamp, who works with this group, is now telling the American Catholic bishops how to behave.

more…
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I read that too! Why am I not surprised?
 
Unlike Catholicism–and I speak of definition, not of interpretation–feminism is an evolving, poorly-defined term. I may draw flames here, but to say one is or is not “feminist” tells even less than saying one is or is not “Democrat” or “Republican”. Without further definition, it is unlikely that you will be assumed to be a faithful Catholic, first and above all.

I think the take-home lesson from this thread is that a Catholic who claims to be either feminist or anti-feminist would do well to define exactly what they do and do not mean when they say that. Many in the world of politics are just dying to project their own meaning on your words, for their own purposes.

To be Catholic first and foremost means that you are committed to that which is wholly just, wholly merciful, and wholly loving, whether or not it fits the world view you have today or whether you approve of the labels your witness gets you pinned with. Whatever we are accused of, we can be certain that the early Church Fathers were pinned with far worse.
 
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kev7:
You all have yet to prove to me that
  1. Doing the work of Christ under the name of Feminism isn’t wrong in the eyes of God.
2.That some poor woman couldn’t become distracted with the other “bad teachings of feminism” and become disgruntled with the catholic church.
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:rolleyes:
 
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beckyann2597:
Start another thread stating what you are REALLY trying to say … “Radical feminist (or Feminazi feminists) cannot be Catholics too!” There I would agree with you. Please respect us where we differ in ideology with others.
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This is a small thing, perhaps, but could we purge the word “Nazi” and its variants from our vocabulary unless we are either literally talking about Nazis or are literally talking about an evil that is truly on the same plane as the Holocaust?

May that word never be used except to refer to evils of the most unspeakable, cruel, and murderous kind. I know there will be those that object that abortion puts some feminists in that camp. Abortion is a great evil, yes, but until these “feminazis” they talk about start literally rounding women up and forcing them to have abortions, and do so with the intention of wiping an entire race from the earth, or until these people start imprisoning and murdering anyone who speaks out against them, we aren’t there yet.

This isn’t about being offensive, but rather that the word “Nazi” deserves to keep an impact that communicates unspeakable evil.
 
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