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Ginger2
Guest
You’re mixing up two different questions.
I was responding to
Originally Posted by reteeks21
I responded showing early Christians had New Testament Scriptures and knew the were inspired of God.
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I was responding to
Originally Posted by reteeks21
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reteeks21
Guest
And why were they considered inspired, and and where does Paul say that these writings are the end-all?
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Tomster
Guest
I was addressing your mistaken belief system, Protestantism, and nothing else.
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Ginger2
Guest
Oh!!! Yo must be talking about post # 6
The church fathers confirmed it:
What, therefore, did not exist, the Scripture was unable to mention; and by not mentioning it, it has given us a clear proof that there was no such thing: for if there had been, the Scripture would have mentioned it. (Tertullian, Against Hermogenes, ch 20)
Can you give me the exact quote and source for Tertullian’s comment?
The church fathers confirmed it:
What, therefore, did not exist, the Scripture was unable to mention; and by not mentioning it, it has given us a clear proof that there was no such thing: for if there had been, the Scripture would have mentioned it. (Tertullian, Against Hermogenes, ch 20)
Can you give me the exact quote and source for Tertullian’s comment?
T
Tomster
Guest
Love your Churchill quote.
I have another: “If a man is not a liberal by the time he 30 he has no heart. If a man is not a conservative by the time he is 40 he has no brains.” :hey_bud:
Did I get that right?
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Tomster
Guest
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Ginger2
Guest
I looked up what Tertullian stated as the “rule of faith” for Christians:
“Now, with regard to this rule of faith-that we may from this point acknowledge what it is which we defend-it is, you must know, that which prescribes the belief that there is one only God, and that He is none other than the Creator of the world, who produced all things out of nothing through His own Word, first of all sent forth; that this Word is called His Son, and, under the name of God, was seen “in diverse manners” by the patriarchs, heard at all times in the prophets, at last brought down by the Spirit and Power of the Father into the Virgin Mary, was made flesh in her womb, and, being born of her, went forth as Jesus Christ; thenceforth He preached the new law and the new promise of the kingdom of heaven, worked miracles; having been crucified, He rose again the third day; (then) having ascended into the heavens, He sat at the right hand of the Father; sent instead of Himself the Power of the Holy Ghost to lead such as believe; will come with glory to take the saints to the enjoyment of everlasting life and of the heavenly promises, and to condemn the wicked to everlasting fire, after the resurrection of both these classes shall have happened, together with the restoration of their flesh. This rule, as it will be proved, was taught by Christ, and raises amongst ourselves no other questions than those which heresies introduce, and which make men heretics.” (Tertullian, the Prescription Against Heretics, Chapter XIII)
That is interesting as that is the very same thing I just claimed in post #15!!!
And it is right out of the Holy Scriptures! No extrabiblical traditions!!! :extrahappy: :dancing: :yeah_me:
I am becoming very fond of Tertullian
“Now, with regard to this rule of faith-that we may from this point acknowledge what it is which we defend-it is, you must know, that which prescribes the belief that there is one only God, and that He is none other than the Creator of the world, who produced all things out of nothing through His own Word, first of all sent forth; that this Word is called His Son, and, under the name of God, was seen “in diverse manners” by the patriarchs, heard at all times in the prophets, at last brought down by the Spirit and Power of the Father into the Virgin Mary, was made flesh in her womb, and, being born of her, went forth as Jesus Christ; thenceforth He preached the new law and the new promise of the kingdom of heaven, worked miracles; having been crucified, He rose again the third day; (then) having ascended into the heavens, He sat at the right hand of the Father; sent instead of Himself the Power of the Holy Ghost to lead such as believe; will come with glory to take the saints to the enjoyment of everlasting life and of the heavenly promises, and to condemn the wicked to everlasting fire, after the resurrection of both these classes shall have happened, together with the restoration of their flesh. This rule, as it will be proved, was taught by Christ, and raises amongst ourselves no other questions than those which heresies introduce, and which make men heretics.” (Tertullian, the Prescription Against Heretics, Chapter XIII)
That is interesting as that is the very same thing I just claimed in post #15!!!
And it is right out of the Holy Scriptures! No extrabiblical traditions!!! :extrahappy: :dancing: :yeah_me:
I am becoming very fond of Tertullian
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Ginger2
Guest
All true Christians believe in the same basic doctrines which are found in the Holy Scriptures and summarized in the Apostle’s Creed:
I believe in God, the Father Almighty, the Creator of heaven and earth, Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord: John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son,
Who was conceived of the Holy Spirit, Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
born of the Virgin Mary, Luk 1:27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name [was] Mary.
suffered under Pontius Pilate, Luke 23:16 I will therefore chastise him, and release [him].
was crucified, Luk 23:23 And they were instant with loud voices, requiring that he might be crucified. …24 And Pilate gave sentence that it should be as they required.
died, Luk 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.
and was buried. Luk 23:52 This [man] went unto Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus. 53 And he took it down, and wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a sepulchre that was hewn in stone, wherein never man before was laid.
He descended into hell. Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
etc.
I just wanted to repost this so people don’t have to go to the other page to find it and point out:
This “rule of Faith” is taken directly from the Holy Scriptures. It is nothing new, but rather summarizes the Basic doctrines expounded in Scriptures. Absolutely no Traditions added and no explainations needed as it is plain and clear in both the Creeds and the Holy Scriptures!!! No need for interpretation as it is easy to understand.
I believe in God, the Father Almighty, the Creator of heaven and earth, Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord: John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son,
Who was conceived of the Holy Spirit, Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
born of the Virgin Mary, Luk 1:27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name [was] Mary.
suffered under Pontius Pilate, Luke 23:16 I will therefore chastise him, and release [him].
was crucified, Luk 23:23 And they were instant with loud voices, requiring that he might be crucified. …24 And Pilate gave sentence that it should be as they required.
died, Luk 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.
and was buried. Luk 23:52 This [man] went unto Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus. 53 And he took it down, and wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a sepulchre that was hewn in stone, wherein never man before was laid.
He descended into hell. Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
etc.
I just wanted to repost this so people don’t have to go to the other page to find it and point out:
This “rule of Faith” is taken directly from the Holy Scriptures. It is nothing new, but rather summarizes the Basic doctrines expounded in Scriptures. Absolutely no Traditions added and no explainations needed as it is plain and clear in both the Creeds and the Holy Scriptures!!! No need for interpretation as it is easy to understand.
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Ginger2
Guest
**I think **I’ll just fade away now…
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Tomster
Guest
Ginger,
I would very much enjoy keeping the lines of ecumenical dialogue open with you if only you would engage your brain.
Us poor Catholics, whether we use the “brains” of our Church or the little we are supposed to have in our bra(name removed by moderator)an, are not so dumb as to fail realize the unsoundness of the Bible only as a rule of faith. It does not take much intellectual acumen to realize that from the days of Luther and Elizabeth I, to the days of a Mrs. Eddy or a Judge Rutherford down to www.familyradio.com , every one of the hundreds of Protestant churches came into existence on the assumption that all other existing churches calling themselves Christian had departed from primitive Christianity, and that - the new sect - was going to return thereto. Each of them claimed the Bible as the sole rule of faith. Do you understand this? Catholics, using their own brains as well as the brains of their Church, appreciate the historic fact that primitive Christianity, the Christianity which each of the Protestant churches claimed or claim to represent, could not have possibly had such a rule of faith. Catholics cannot help but believe that the twelve Apostles had “brains,” but of what use were they from the point of view of the standard upheld by Protestantism? They could not feed their “brains” out of a Christian Bible. “Why?” Because the books of the Christian Bible had not been formally assembled during the lifetime of the Apostles. They know that St. John is the only one of the Twelve who could possibly have seen all the books that in the New Testament. “Why?” Because eleven of the Twelve died before St. John wrote his Gospel, and that Gospel did not formally become part of the Canon of Holy Scripture until centuries after St. John died when the canon was formally fixed. Do you understand this? I am beginning to wonder.The Christ-made, Apostle-used authority, guide, “rule of faith,” was the Church, for such a thing as a New Testament, Protestant “rule of faith” did not and could not exist. Understand?
It does not take much exercising of brains to realize that without a living, Divinely instituted authority there is no way of knowing, with certitude, whether the writings in the Bible were inspired by God, or what those writings really mean. Therefore, the most manifest sign of true wisdom, in matters religious and moral, is the brain action of Catholics listening to the Voice of Christ expressed through the Divinely guaranteed “brains” of the Church of Christ.
:newidea: Hope this helps fair lady.
(geez! :hypno
I would very much enjoy keeping the lines of ecumenical dialogue open with you if only you would engage your brain.
Us poor Catholics, whether we use the “brains” of our Church or the little we are supposed to have in our bra(name removed by moderator)an, are not so dumb as to fail realize the unsoundness of the Bible only as a rule of faith. It does not take much intellectual acumen to realize that from the days of Luther and Elizabeth I, to the days of a Mrs. Eddy or a Judge Rutherford down to www.familyradio.com , every one of the hundreds of Protestant churches came into existence on the assumption that all other existing churches calling themselves Christian had departed from primitive Christianity, and that - the new sect - was going to return thereto. Each of them claimed the Bible as the sole rule of faith. Do you understand this? Catholics, using their own brains as well as the brains of their Church, appreciate the historic fact that primitive Christianity, the Christianity which each of the Protestant churches claimed or claim to represent, could not have possibly had such a rule of faith. Catholics cannot help but believe that the twelve Apostles had “brains,” but of what use were they from the point of view of the standard upheld by Protestantism? They could not feed their “brains” out of a Christian Bible. “Why?” Because the books of the Christian Bible had not been formally assembled during the lifetime of the Apostles. They know that St. John is the only one of the Twelve who could possibly have seen all the books that in the New Testament. “Why?” Because eleven of the Twelve died before St. John wrote his Gospel, and that Gospel did not formally become part of the Canon of Holy Scripture until centuries after St. John died when the canon was formally fixed. Do you understand this? I am beginning to wonder.The Christ-made, Apostle-used authority, guide, “rule of faith,” was the Church, for such a thing as a New Testament, Protestant “rule of faith” did not and could not exist. Understand?
It does not take much exercising of brains to realize that without a living, Divinely instituted authority there is no way of knowing, with certitude, whether the writings in the Bible were inspired by God, or what those writings really mean. Therefore, the most manifest sign of true wisdom, in matters religious and moral, is the brain action of Catholics listening to the Voice of Christ expressed through the Divinely guaranteed “brains” of the Church of Christ.
:newidea: Hope this helps fair lady.
(geez! :hypno
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reteeks21
Guest
How in the world can you dismiss when the New Testament is FULL of references to obeying the written words AND tradition. The beliefs handed down in the Creed were handed down long before there was an accepted Canon. It is intellectually and spiritually dishonest and disingenuous to dismiss the obvious teachings on tradition and its role in the development and governing of the Church.
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Portrait
Guest
Dear Ginger2,
Cordial greetings.
The fundamental issue in the debate between Rome and the churches of the Reformation is the whole question of authority. Protestants are heirs of the Reformation principle* sola *scriptura, because for them the final authority is the written word of God.
Part of the reasoning behind sola scriptura is the belief that the bible clear and easy for all to understand. However, if Sacred Scripture is indeed straightforward and sufficient, then one must ask why there is a multiplicity of Christians groupings; whatever else may said, Protestantism does seem to have a pathological tendency to divide and fragment. You state that “all true Christians believe in the same basic doctrines which are found in the Holy Scriptures and summarized in the Apostle’s Creed”. This is often and casually stated, but when scrutinzed, it collapses under its own weight. No doubt, you would concur with C.S. Lewis that there is such a thing as “mere Christianity” and that whilst real Christians agree on the basics (“the faith once delivered unto the saints” S. Jude 3), they may disagree on so called second order issues. Unfortunately, when one actually examines what the different denominations teach, one discovers that they not only disagree on non-essential matters - such as, for example, whether ladies ought to wear hats to church or whether one should be baptized immersion or sprinkling the forehead - they also disagree on fundamental or central issues; is baptism necessary for salvation, does it or does it not regenerate; is grace indefectible? How does one understand Holy Communion?; what is the role of good works in a man’s salvation? etc. It is easy to say that Scripture is essentially clear, but experience just does not bear it out because all the myriads of Protestant sects, and individuals within those sects, make their appeal to the same bible to make their conflicting viewpoints. To put it quite simply multiple denominations equal multiple interpretations of the bible.
Now the Catholic would contend that this state of affairs is highly unsatisfactory and reveals that something is seriously amiss within the Protestant groupings. The clear and certain truth that does emerge is that an objective, historical and universal interpretative authority is required in order to correctly ascertain God’s truth. It is only the Catholic Church, through the Magisterium, that provides such an unerring authority. Clearly it is wholly inadequate to say that the Holy Spirit is the authoritative interpreter of Sacred Scripture, since all the multitude of Protestant sects claim the Holy Spirit’s work in their midst, and yet the all disagree, otherwise they would not be separate from one another. Thus was the Holy Spirit wrong?; did he lead some of them into the truth, whilst misleading others? In point of fact the Holy Spirit was only given within the context of the community of faith, the “One Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church” established by Jesus Christ upon St. Peter. It is only through the Catholic Church that the Holy Spirit can work authentically and most fully. Hence it is only the Church which can most authentically interpret Scripture because it and it alone “…is the Church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth” (I Tim. 3: 15).
Warmest good wishes,
Portrait
pax
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Jimmy_B
Guest
Excellent Post! Very well put!
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Ginger2
Guest
You are mistaken. **Our final authority is God **Himself and no other. The Bible is a tool that God has given us to check for truth…a means (ie rule of faith) for testing if you will.
Just as the Bereans tested what Paul told them against the Old Testament books, we test men and spirits and our own thinking against both Old and New Testaments to ensure we are not following false prophets, teachers, spirits, or even our own desires.
What may seem right to a man, can often be revealed as wrong in God’s written Word.
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Portrait
Guest
Dear Ginger2,
Thankyou kindly for the above response.
Your remarks only exemplify the very point I was seeking to make, viz, that all Protestants would claim that their ultimate authority is God and that Sacred Scripture is the means whereby truth must tested. Alas, this leads one along a subjective path to an ultimate quagmire of competing opinions; in fact the doctrinal bedlam that is Protestantism. Each Protestant Christian will interpret the bible in the light of their own doctrinal presuppositions, or at least in the light of the denominational bias of the tradition from whence they were reared.
The case of the noble Bereans (Acts 17: 11) is not an instance of the right of private judgement in the Protestant sense. They were simply very eager to listen to the presentation of the Gospel proclamation and went to the O.T. Scriptures to diligently examine into the grounds of what was declared to them. Any potential convert to Christianity today would likewise, following a proclamation of the Gospel by a priest or evangelist, wish to satisfy himself by checking the facts with a copy of the N.T., especially the Gospels. However, this passage cannot be called into service as a *carte blanche *endorsment, for polemical purposes, of the right of private interpretation by all and sundry, to support dissent from the teaching of Christ’s one true church. This would be to pit the bible against the Church which is “the pillar and bulwark of truth”.
Jesus Christ established the Catholic Church and sent it to teach all nations. That Church does so and all Catholics at least know where they stand. Outside the bosom of Holy Mother Church we have doctrinal and moral chaos and interminable unhappy divisions. This at least ought to send up the warning cones to any thinking Protestant.
Warmest good wishes,
Portrait
Pax
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Portrait
Guest
Dear Jimmy B,
Cordial greetings from the U.K. and thankyou for your kind words respecting my post.
Warmest good wishes,
Portrait:tiphat:
Pax
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Nicea325
Guest
Yes God is our Final authority,NOT SCRIPTURE as you once stated. We worship God,not a book. Jesus founded a CHURCH,not a Bible. NT Scripture was written by the leaders of the church so its follwers could hear it,not own it as we all do today.
BTW: Yes the Bible is a means,not ‘the’ only means.
S
schaick
Guest
No!
There is but one true interpretation, many applications. There might be a deeper meaning to any given verse but that can not contradict or go against any part of Scripture.
S
schaick
Guest
Today the easiest, most concrete, true way to get to what GOD requires from us in our relationship with HIM is HIS Word-Scripture.
Yes Jesus founded the universal Church of which ALL trinitarian Christians are a member of even if you are Catholic. As long as your ministers, pastors, priests are not giving a gospel message different then the one laid out in the Bible.
The Gospel being the message of our salvation through Christ.
Example of a different gospel- you have to believe in Mary as a perpetual virgin, immaculately conceived or that instead of Jesus being the head of the church HE built the Pope is
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Portrait
Guest
Dear schaick,
Cordial greetings.
To state that what God requires of us is to be found only within Sacred Scripture, is surely to embrace an untenable position and one that is totally unworkable in practice.
As an Anglican I wrestled with this very problem for many years, for even within my own denomination the various church ‘parties’ would always appeal energetically to the bible to settle disputes about doctrine, even the liberals and freethinkers! The fact is that equally devout and equally bible loving Christians arrive at widely differing and opposing interpretations of God’s Word whilst all claiming to be taught of God. Now who is to arbitrate between these feuding factions, even in one single denomination like the Church of England, let alone literally thousands of them? Who will speak to the faithful with authority, whilst they all rush about flapping the pages of their well-thumbed bibles, locked in shrill contests over the meaning of Holy Baptism, The Eucharist, the nature of the Church, Women Ordination, Homosexuality and many other central issues?
There can only be “One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church”, “the pillar and bulwark of truth”, and that is the Church established upon St. Peter by our Lord (St. Matt. 16: 18), not the donnybrook that the world observes today, with the tragic multiplicity of Protestant groupings, large and small, all clamoring and claiming to be, in one sense or another, the Church.
Me, my bible and Jesus is woefully inadequate; it is not that it is altogether a bad picture as such, but it is decidedly not the whole picture. Our most holy Faith, ancient, serene, undimmed and true, cannot be severed from Holy Mother Church from which that Faith emerged.
Warmest good wishes,
Portrait
Pax
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