You can't have it both ways - #2

[schaick]

Dear schaick,

Cordial greetings.

To state that what God requires of us is to be found only within Sacred Scripture, is surely to embrace an untenable position and one that is totally unworkable in practice.

As an Anglican I wrestled with this very problem for many years, for even within my own denomination the various church ‘parties’ would always appeal energetically to the bible to settle disputes about doctrine, even the liberals and freethinkers! The fact is that equally devout and equally bible loving Christians arrive at widely differing and opposing interpretations of God’s Word whilst all claiming to be taught of God. Now who is to arbitrate between these feuding factions, even in one single denomination like the Church of England, let alone literally thousands of them? Who will speak to the faithful with authority, whilst they all rush about flapping the pages of their well-thumbed bibles, locked in shrill contests over the meaning of Holy Baptism, The Eucharist, the nature of the Church, Women Ordination, Homosexuality and many other central issues?

There can only be “One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church”, “the pillar and bulwark of truth”, and that is the Church established upon St. Peter by our Lord (St. Matt. 16: 18), not the donnybrook that the world observes today, with the tragic multiplicity of Protestant groupings, large and small, all clamoring and claiming to be, in one sense or another, the Church.

Me, my bible and Jesus is woefully inadequate; it is not that it is altogether a bad picture as such, but it is decidedly not the whole picture. Our most holy Faith, ancient, serene, undimmed and true, cannot be severed from Holy Mother Church from which that Faith emerged.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax

Oh my goodness, I don’t even know how to respond as I can’t get past what you said-

Me, my bible and Jesus is woefully inadequate;

 

[schaick]

I hate to break it to you, bu ththe Bible is not the source of Divine Revelation, but is a conduit of Revelation

Yes and a great bit of concrete evidence it is.

Show me the evidence that a tradition that was to be passed on disapeared for centuries the suddenly shows up and that it belief in it is required for our salvation.

 

[StTommyMore]

Oh my goodness, I don’t even know how to respond as I can’t get past what you said-

Me, my bible and Jesus is woefully inadequate;

If “Me my Bible, and Jesus” were enough, then we would not need a Church.

 

[Portrait]

Oh my goodness, I don’t even know how to respond as I can’t get past what you said-

Me, my bible and Jesus is woefully inadequate;

Dear schaick,

Cordial greetings.

Can I kindly ask that you ponder these words of St. Augustine:

“I would not believe in the gospel unless the authority of the Catholic Church moved me to do so”

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax

 

[Araninski]

To Portrait:

Hi

Look I know you took your time to post those two messages but unfortunately you just grabbed a part of my post and lost the entire context. First of all the Holy Scripture was Holy Scripture (Holy Inspiration, then written) when Moises received it from God, the NT comes later.

To understand why we Christians believe on Jesus the Christ ( better said Yahshua , Yeshua , The Messiah) and why we have NT in the first place, we need to go back to the OT. Ok I know the Torah (Pentateuch) ,Nevi’im (Prophets), Ketuvim (Writings, Teachings, words of truth). Are all inspired, why? Because God gave His Words to Moses, and the people God chose to be His people, preserved these teachings and scriptures through time, as well as the prophets and teachers, God raised through time, for warnings, prophecies and teachings. And because of the fulfillment of its prophecies.

Now here is the base of all of the Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Christianity,Mormonism? and Islam). Ok then comes Christianity, how can we know Jesus was the Messiah to come? God gave us the OT, and with the OT we can prove Jesus is the Messiah. How can we know the NT is inspired? We got the OT to analyze all of the NT and if the NT contradicts something in the OT then it is clearly not inspired. So I have studied the OT, and I can believe the NT is inspired, because it passes the test of the OT, the OT and NT are in complete harmony.

Now Islam’s holy book, the Koran, is not in harmony with the OT, so I can discard the Koran from being authentic word of God, and thus the teachings of Mohamed not from God. The same goes with Mormonism and other Abrahamic Religions.

I know the OT is inspired because, it has been preserved through the time, without being distorted. We can check old scrolls and check our new translated OT and it has the same information basically. NT is just the fulfillment, so if this fulfillment is in harmony with the OT prophecies, I can say the NT is inspired.

So no I am not having a faulty reasoning. How do you know the guys who compiled the cannon of the Bible are inspired? How do you know Christ is God? How do you know the Messiah already came? And I can continue, not because of the Church which still didn’t existed, the Apostles (back then disciples) didn’t had the Church to explain them anything, back then, but because of what they knew of the Scriptures.

How do the Apostles knew Jesus was the Messiah? Because of the NT? No the NT didn’t even existed, because of the Church? No it didn’t existed neither. They knew because of the prophecies concerning the coming of the Messiah. So here they could say: Peter: “Wow guys the OT is true, the word of God, our faith has paid us!”, and because God commanded all the Jews to tell their sons, and every generation that God did this and that and said this and that was going to happen.

Most of the Christians believe the Bible is inspired (yes this is true) but they don’t know why it is inspired. Not because the Council of Nicaea compiled it (this may help, but is not the main reason) , but because they forget that the Word of God came initially from Moses who got it from God himself. Now how do we know this is true, well first because it has been preserved for thousands of years and because we have faith on it. We know God can’t be proven, nor we can’t completely proof with evidence that any scripture is inspired. We got to have faith to believe that these scrolls that have this information are given from God to his people. So our faith starts from the OT and gets fulfilled with Jesus.

How do I know the OT is from God, it has prophesied many events (state of Israel,Isaiah 66:8 ), including the coming of the Jewish Messiah, which is our salvation. How do I know the NT is inspired, because is in perfect harmony with the OT.

So you got it, the Bible is , Holy Scripture , it is inspired, it is from God, it is trustworthy rule of faith.

I hope you got my point and read all of my post the next time.

Yahweh bless.

 

[Araninski]

Originally Posted by StTommyMore

If “Me my Bible, and Jesus” were enough, then we would not need a Church.

You are wrong, the bible tells us we need to congregate. When we congregate Jesus is with us

Matthew 18:20
“For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them.”

Yes the Catholics are not the only ones who believe this, but again Jesus can only be present physically ITS IMPOSIBLE for Him to be present in other way.

BTW:

“A congregation is a large gathering of people, often for the purpose of worship”

Yahweh bless.

 

[GaryTaylor]

So how do you explain this? 1/4 million witnessed with confirmed miracles of healing. Well listen to the Physician. She said “A GREAT number of Miracles and Healings?”

youtube.com/user/e1r2h3Tube

 

[4thelamb]

Dear Araninski,

Cordial greetings.

Your above remarks are fallacious and based on faulty reasoning.

First, how do we know that Sacred Scripture itself is inspired and a trustworthy rule of faith? Clearly, if the bible is the sole and final authority in all matters of faith and morals, as Protestants assert, then it must prove itself to be so. However, if we seek to prove the inspiration and authority of the bible from the bible then we are guitly of the logical error of petitio principii, or begging the question, for we take for granted the very fact which we are proposing to validate. In any event it would not matter if every single book in the entire canon was prefaced with the words, “the following book is inspired”; The Koran, The Book of Mormon and the divers holy books of the Eastern religions, all lay claim to inspiration. Thus any books mere claim of inspiration is inadaquate to ascertain that books bona fides.

The circular argument of Protestants usually takes the following line of defective reasoning:
Protestant: "2 Timothy 3: 16 states, “All scripture is inspired by God…”.
Catholic: “But how does one establish that that text itself is an inspired statement?”.
Protestant: “Because that text is in the bible and the bible is God’s inspired word”.
Catholic: “Alright. Why is it inspired?”.
Protestant: “Because it is inspired”.
Catholic: “Yes, but why do you believe it is inspired?”.
Protestant: “Because the bible states that it is inspired and we believe the bible is God’s word which is true”.
This is a classic case of logical tail-chasing or circular reasoning and will not satisfy any man who desires a sure and certain intellectual basis for his faith.

Warmest good wishes,
Portrait

Pax

Look…obviously it requires FAITH. That’s the whole point. (What you’re arguing, regarding the infallibility and inerrant nature of Scripture, is fundamentally no different than the argument of an atheist.) If it could be proven like a science experiment then everyone in the world would KNOW, not BELIEVE, “all scripture is God-breathed”(2 Tim 3:16), to be a proven scientific fact. And that would require no faith. And how does Christ say we are saved (?)……

Jesus said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you, go in peace.”—(Luke 7:50)
“Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever **does not believe **will be condemned.”—(Mark 16:16).

…… by Faith. (ROM 10:9-11; ACTS 16:31; 1 JOHN 5:1)

(1 COR 1:21)— “Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, **God was pleased **through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.”

What was it that made Abraham righteous? Abraham **believed **God and it was credited to him as righteousness.(GEN 15:6; ROM 4:3,9; GAL 3:6; JAS 2:23)

So…when God’s Word tells us that Scripture is God’s inspired message, containing ALL of His commands and requirements for our salvation, and that it reveals His plan for our lives. As faithful Christians, we’re 100% for sure going to believe and follow what our Creator tells us, And that’s what we’re going to center our faith, our practice of that faith, and our entire lives around…what God, not men, tells us in His Word.

You see FAITH is what being a Christian is all about. If you’ve left that out of your religious equation, then you are worshiping the Lord in vain. (2 KINGS 17:14-15; MATT 15:9; MARK 7:7) In fact in some cases, its not the Lord you’re worshiping at all.

 

[Araninski]

Originally Posted by 4thelamb

Look…obviously it requires FAITH. That’s the whole point. (What you’re arguing, regarding the infallibility and inerrant nature of Scripture, is fundamentally no different than the argument of an atheist.) If it could be proven like a science experiment then everyone in the world would KNOW, not BELIEVE, “all scripture is God-breathed”(2 Tim 3:16), to be a proven scientific fact. And that would require no faith. And how does Christ say we are saved (?)……

Jesus said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you, go in peace.”—(Luke 7:50)
“Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.”—(Mark 16:16).

…… by Faith. (ROM 10:9-11; ACTS 16:31; 1 JOHN 5:1)

(1 COR 1:21)— “Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.”

What was it that made Abraham righteous? Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness.(GEN 15:6; ROM 4:3,9; GAL 3:6; JAS 2:23)

So…when God’s Word tells us that Scripture is God’s inspired message, containing ALL of His commands and requirements for our salvation, and that it reveals His plan for our lives. As faithful Christians, we’re 100% for sure going to believe and follow what our Creator tells us, And that’s what we’re going to center our faith, our practice of that faith, and our entire lives around…what God, not men, tells us in His Word.

You see FAITH is what being a Christian is all about. If you’ve left that out of your religious equation, then you are worshiping the Lord in vain. (2 KINGS 17:14-15; MATT 15:9; MARK 7:7) In fact it could be said in some cases, its not the Lord you’re worshiping at all.

Yes I forgot to say this too

Nice post 4thelamb

Yahweh bless

 

[StTommyMore]

You are wrong, the bible tells us we need to congregate. When we congregate Jesus is with us

Matthew 18:20
“For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them.”

Yes the Catholics are not the only ones who believe this, but again Jesus can only be present physically ITS IMPOSIBLE for Him to be present in other way.

BTW:

“A congregation is a large gathering of people, often for the purpose of worship”

Yahweh bless.

We do need a Church. It has always been thus. The quahel-Israel of the Old Testament became the Church of the New Testament, which Scripture defines as the final authority for disputes and the pillar and bulwark of truth.

 

[Araninski]

Originally Posted by StTommyMore

We do need a Church. It has always been thus. The quahel-Israel of the Old Testament became the Church of the New Testament, which Scripture defines as the final authority for disputes and the pillar and bulwark of truth.

Exactly, because God told the people of Israel to congregate, this is Word of God, which is the Bible. The reason why there is a Church (body of believers) which congregate is because God commanded this. This is doctrine, a commandment, this is Word of God. The Church is supposed to use the Word of God to show the world the truth, preach salvation and calling for people to change the way they live their life, they are called to sanctification, this is why the Church is the pillar and bulwark of Truth, we have the authority to dispute, because we have the truth, given by God himself. God’s people have always been the same. The ones who believe in Him, are His people, of course He started with the small group of Israel.

Deuteronomy 7:6-8

6 “For you are a holy people to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for Himself, a special treasure above all the peoples on the face of the earth. 7 The LORD did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any other people, for you were the least of all peoples; 8 but because the LORD loves you, and because He would keep the oath which He swore to your fathers, the LORD has brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you from the house of bondage, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

And now with the Messiah (Christ), we are Jews also or better said Hebrews:

Galatians 3:29
If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Yahweh bless.

 

[StTommyMore]

Exactly, because God told the people of Israel to congregate, this is Word of God, which is the Bible. The reason why there is a Church (body of believers) which congregate is because God commanded this. This is doctrine, a commandment, this is Word of God. The Church is supposed to use the Word of God to show the world the truth, preach salvation and calling for people to change the way they live their life, they are called to sanctification, this is why the Church is the pillar and bulwark of Truth, we have the authority to dispute, because we have the truth, given by God himself. God’s people have always been the same. The ones who believe in Him, are His people, of course He started with the small group of Israel.

And now with the Messiah (Christ), we are Jews also or better said Hebrews:

Yahweh bless.

Sorry. The Church has NEVER taught this. DO you have any early Christian writings to back up your position? Or am I to assume this is your own interpretation of the Scriptures?

 

[Shannon9791]

Exactly, because God told the people of Israel to congregate, this is Word of God, which is the Bible. The reason why there is a Church (body of believers) which congregate is because God commanded this. This is doctrine, a commandment, this is Word of God. The Church is supposed to use the Word of God to show the world the truth, preach salvation and calling for people to change the way they live their life, they are called to sanctification, this is why the Church is the pillar and bulwark of Truth, we have the authority to dispute, because we have the truth, given by God himself. God’s people have always been the same. The ones who believe in Him, are His people, of course He started with the small group of Israel.

And now with the Messiah (Christ), we are Jews also or better said Hebrews:

Yahweh bless.

Which do you think came first, the Bible or the Church?

 

[Nicea325]

Originally Posted by Araninski

Exactly, because God told the people of Israel to congregate, this is Word of God, which is the Bible. The reason why there is a Church (body of believers) which congregate is because God commanded this. This is doctrine, a commandment, this is Word of God. The Church is supposed to use the Word of God to show the world the truth, preach salvation and calling for people to change the way they live their life, they are called to sanctification, this is why the Church is the pillar and bulwark of Truth, we have the authority to dispute, because we have the truth, given by God himself. God’s people have always been the same. The ones who believe in Him, are His people, of course He started with the small group of Israel.

And now with the Messiah (Christ), we are Jews also or better said Hebrews:

Yahweh bless.

Tell me something,which Bible did Abraham use,since the Word of God is the Bible?

 

[Dokimas]

Dear schaick,

Cordial greetings.

Can I kindly ask that you ponder these words of St. Augustine:

“I would not believe in the gospel unless the authority of the Catholic Church moved me to do so”

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax

I would not believe the Gospel unless the Holy Spirit moved me to do so.

 

[Dokimas]

Which do you think came first, the Bible or the Church?

Seeing how God doesn’t change and the Word was in His mind forever, the Bible.

 

[StTommyMore]

Seeing how God doesn’t change and the Word was in His mind forever, the Bible.

Wrong answer. The Word (the Second Person of the Trinity) and the Bible are not identical.

 

[Dokimas]

Wrong answer. The Word (the Second Person of the Trinity) and the Bible are not identical.

Who says it’s wrong?

I didn’t say they were identical.

You didn’t read too carefully. Jesus wasn’t in God’s mind. The Word of God that became written was.

The Bible is the written Word of God.

 

[StTommyMore]

Who says it’s wrong?

I didn’t say they were identical.

You didn’t read too carefully. Jesus wasn’t in God’s mind. The Word of God that became written was.

The Bible is the written Word of God.

But not all was written.

 

[Dokimas]

But not all was written.

Assuming you are correct, what’s your point to me in context of what I was saying?