You caught us Catholics!!! It is repitition!!!

[ebuon]

Yes it is. According to the Word of God… it is “much speaking” just like heathens which is vain to God.

Mat 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen [do]: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

I believe that the point of Matthew 6:7 is to make sure you do not repeat things without actually knowing and meditating on what you are saying. It is not saying that repition is bad. It is highlighting the fact that the heathens repeated things over and over again and thought that the mere practice of saying words would be enough. However one must make sure not to get into a routine but actually know and think about the things you are saying.

When one prays the rosary it is repetitous, but it is not repetition without meditation.

 

[Hisalone]

That’s exactly what jmcrae said, you just didn’t understand it.

No my friend it is you who dont understand.

 

[pete_29]

No my friend it is you who dont understand.

In your opinion, and don’t tell me it’s Gods opinion because you’re using your interpretation of the Bible to support it.

 

[believers]

First of all, “heathens” don’t have “rosary beads”.

Taken from Wikipedia

Prayer beads or Rosaries are used by various religions such as Islam, Roman Catholics, Orthodox Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Sikhs, Bahá’ís and Greek to count the repetitions of prayers, chants or devotions a number of times; also, for meditation, protection from negative energy, for relaxation and even to relieve stress.

 

[Hisalone]

It isn’t a question at all, all Catholics talk to God as HE IS OUR FATHER. Be real? You treat God as some petty little 3 year old who can’t understand how much we love Him in our hearts because we’re not shouting Praise God 24 hours a day so that everyone can see what good Christians we are. And since, by your last sentence says, I can tell him my requests for others, how much the better that the Blessed Virgin ans the Saints add their voices to my requests since they are with Him in Heaven.

This is why we dont believe you.

If you really knew God and you really knew His voice and if you really have given a glimpse of His glory you would never ever ever go look for Mary.

 

[believers]

… because we’re not shouting Praise God 24 hours a day.

Psa 44:8 In God we boast all the day long, and praise thy name for ever. Selah.

 

[pete_29]

Psa 44:8 In God we boast all the day long, and praise thy name for ever. Selah.

Yes Praise God not Praise God to impress everyone.

 

[NonCatholic]

I just prayed out loud for all of you…did anyone at all hear the prayer? Are you not closer to me than to Heaven?

The Mary of the Bible and the other physically dead saints of the ages cannot hear your or anyone’s prayers. Maybe in Heaven we have have “super-sonic” hearing…don’t remember reading that anywhere.

Unless you believe that this was overlooked in Scripture. **There is not one example, not one in the NT or OT where someone prayed to or through a physically dead saint to reach God. **Instead we are taught in many ways how to pray to God and God alone; for God alone is able to answer prayer…right?

For something that is so prevalent in Catholicism, one would think we could have at least one example of this…don’t you? Just something to think about.

 

[Callin]

The Mary of the Bible and the other physically dead saints of the ages cannot hear your or anyone’s prayers. Maybe in Heaven we have have “super-sonic” hearing…don’t remember reading that anywhere.

Revelation 5:8 When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

Explain these prayers.

Revelation 6:9-11: I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer.

This shows that those who have died are at least somewhat aware of what is happening on earth. Since they now share in God’s glory (Romans 8:17), it doesn’t surprise me.

 

[KestrelRose]

Hi NonCatholic,

I noticed in your profile that you have stated that you belong to “none religion”, but that you have a personal relationship with Christ.

I have no problem with that, and I don’t discount Christ’s love for you. What I am curious about is, what is your definition of religion? Do you want Catholics to cease our devotion to Mary in order to belong to a “none religion” also. And how does one belong to a “none religion” Do you worship with other people or are you simply alone with God. Do you accept the the Apostle’s Creed?

Who are your mentors? Are you truly alone in your interpretation of the scriptures? Or do you share your interpretation of scriptures with others of like-mind? and if so, Isn’t that simply a newly formed religion?

 

[jmcrae]

Is there an example of praying in Heaven?

The Book of Revelation is packed with examples of people praying in Heaven.

I think when you get there all the prayers are answered.

There are still people alive on earth whose prayers have not yet been answered - these are the people that we will be praying for when we get to Heaven, just like the Saints in the Book of Revelation were praying for the Church on earth.

.just a thought. The Holy Spirit, God intercedes concerning our prayers.
**Romans 8:34 **who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, **who also intercedes for us. **
Romans 8:26-27
In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; **for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for {us} with groanings too deep for words; **and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to {the will of} God.

Yes, this is true. We Catholics certainly believe in the Holy Spirit.

Where is the example in Scripture…just a little one. I noticed you skipped that part. Praying for one another to God.

Read through the letters of St. Paul for many, many examples of people praying for one another, and continuing to pray even after death.

No I don’t think your deaf in Heaven, but I just said a prayer out loud for you…I doubt you heard it and we are a lot closer to each other than we are to Heaven.

Heaven (and everyone who is there) is in each of our Christian hearts; it is not far away at all.

 

[KestrelRose]

The argument “Where is that in the Bible” is really a matter of interpreting various passages in the Bible - reading the scriptures as a whole or in parts and pieces. If we simply take the Bible by itself there would be a different interpretation for every single person who opens the Bible.

I figure, that since the Bible came from the Holy Catholic Church and that the Bible is born of the ancient written and verbal Tradition of the Church, the Church has a better concept of how it should be intrepreted. The ancient written and verbal of Tradition of the Church is more than just the Bible.

Any one can start a new and different religion by simply opening the Bible and saying, “This is my interpretation.”

It was the leaders of the Catholic Church who decided what books should be in the Holy Scriptures. God did not hand the scriptures over intact. He left it up to His Church to come to this understanding. This decision was made by the Catholic Church some 400 years after the death and resurrection of Christ.

You accept the authority of the Church whenever you read the Bible. So why not accept the authority of the Church in the interpretation of the Bible?

 

[jmcrae]

That’s exactly what jmcrae said, you just didn’t understand it.

Exactly!!

 

[jmcrae]

I just prayed out loud for all of you…did anyone at all hear the prayer? Are you not closer to me than to Heaven?

Heaven (and everyone who is there) is in my heart (and in the heart of every believing Christian); is there anything closer to me that my own heart?

The Mary of the Bible and the other physically dead saints of the ages cannot hear your or anyone’s prayers. Maybe in Heaven we have have “super-sonic” hearing…don’t remember reading that anywhere.

they don’t need supersonic hearing; they are with God, who is in every place that exists, and in all of the moments of time. They are where God is, because to be with God is to be in Heaven. And God is with us in our hearts, which means that they, too, are with us, in our hearts.

Unless you believe that this was overlooked in Scripture. **There is not one example, not one in the NT or OT where someone prayed to or through a physically dead saint to reach God. **

Jesus spoke to Moses and Elijah (who were “dead” at the time) at the moment of the Transfiguration. The Saints in Heaven are praying for us throughout the Book of Revelation.

 

[NonCatholic]

The Book of Revelation is packed with examples of people praying in Heaven.

Then shouldn’t be aproblem to give an example of that…please.

Read through the letters of St. Paul for many, many examples of people praying for one another

yes we are told to pray for one another…I agree,

and continuing to pray even after death.

Shouldn’t be a problem to for you to provide one example of an earthly believer praying for a physically dead saint. Good luck.

Heaven (and everyone who is there) is in each of our Christian hearts; it is not far away at all.

You are very good about changing the subject…were talking physical distance and the heart is not the organ used to hear.

 

[NonCatholic]

Jesus spoke to Moses and Elijah (who were “dead” at the time) at the moment of the Transfiguration. The Saints in Heaven are praying for us throughout the Book of Revelation.

The Apostles and disciples spoke to Jesus. Was that prayer or dialogue? Don’t confuse the two; they are not the same. Again, since there are “many, many”; I ask for one.

 

[brkn1]

Heaven (and everyone who is there) is in my heart (and in the heart of every believing Christian); is there anything closer to me that my own heart?

they don’t need supersonic hearing; they are with God, who is in every place that exists, and in all of the moments of time. They are where God is, because to be with God is to be in Heaven. And God is with us in our hearts, which means that they, too, are with us, in our hearts.

The biblical use of heart is the same thing as speaking of a person’s soul or individual being. It is not referring to the actual physical heart.

The Holy Spirit indwells a born again person. That allows the Father and Jesus to also be spiritually present in those who are God’s children by the spiritual birth from above.

We are spiritually in Heaven when we are in Christ, but we are not physically there yet.

I do not see where you got the idea that other saints are also in our hearts. That position belongs only to God, when you are speaking about the spiritual presence in our heart.

 

[jmcrae]

The Apostles and disciples spoke to Jesus. Was that prayer or dialogue? Don’t confuse the two; they are not the same. Again, since there are “many, many”; I ask for one.

“Prayer” to the Saints is also just dialogue with them - we don’t “worship” them, any more than Jesus was “worshipping” Moses and Elijah on the Mount of Transfiguration, or any more than St. Paul was “worshipping” Onisephorus after his death, in II Timothy 1:16-18.

 

[NonCatholic]

The argument “Where is that in the Bible” is really a matter of interpreting various passages in the Bible - reading the scriptures as a whole or in parts and pieces. If we simply take the Bible by itself there would be a different interpretation for every single person who opens the Bible.

We are told to be like the Bereans to avoid false teaching and to know what is true in light if Scripture…right? However; I do agree that we end up with a thousand and one interpretations, you can see that all over this forum for example. The question becomes why? The Bible answers this in no uncertain terms. 1 Corinthians 2:12-15 12 “Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, **so that we may know **the things freely given to us by God, 13 which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual {thoughts} with spiritual {words.} 14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. 15 But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one.”

Do you understand what Paul just said?

I figure, that since the Bible came from the Holy Catholic Church

I guess Moses was Catholic…do you listen to your self?

The ancient written and verbal of Tradition of the Church is more than just the Bible.

That is showing you have a lower view of Scripture than one ought to. The Bible claims that it is Supreme in authority and infallible; so to say something is of equal value is an insult to the author of Scripture, which is not the Catholic Church, but the Holy Spirit.

**Isaiah 29:13 **Therefore the Lord said: "Inasmuch as these people draw near with their mouths And honor Me with their lips, But have removed their hearts far from Me, And their fear toward Me is taught by the commandment of men, - sound familiar?

Any one can start a new and different religion by simply opening the Bible and saying, “This is my interpretation.”

You are 100% right; we this everyday.

You accept the authority of the Church whenever you read the Bible. So why not accept the authority of the Church in the interpretation of the Bible?

I and my church members accept the authority of God as revealed in Scripture; not a “Church” made of fallible people. What happens if we don’t have that single standard?.. then anything goes and does…then who is to say which revelation(s) outside of Scripture are correct? The Mormons make that claim, Jehovah Witnesses make that claim and the Catholic church makes the claim…so where does it end and who is right?

 

[NonCatholic]

“Prayer” to the Saints is also just dialogue with them - we don’t “worship” them, any more than Jesus was “worshipping” Moses and Elijah on the Mount of Transfiguration, or any more than St. Paul was “worshipping” Onisephorus after his death, in II Timothy 1:16-18.

You are the master of question avoidance.