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believers
Guest
So you’re saying the Word of God is actually incorrect. You are saying it should have said Petros/petros and not Petros/petra. You are saying the Holy Ghost was wrong or rather inaccurate?
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jmcrae
Guest
The Vatican has never, ever done this.
The proper “official” title of a priest is “Reverend.” If you were writing a formal letter to him, that’s how you would address him.
In the English-speaking world, we affectionately call him Father, because he is in charge of the 'household" of the parish, of which we are like the children, since we are continually going to him to resolve our disputes for us.
In other countries they use terms of affection like “Uncle,” or “Brother,” etc.
But no, the Vatican has never officially conferred the title “Father” on anyone. It’s just an affectionate nickname that we call them, by custom.
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pete_29
Guest
The Word of God IS pure. It is when men interpret it to justify themselves that the trouble starts. You think the Catholic Church decided things at the spur of the moment. It didn’t. Threre was a lot of Prayer, Thought , And discussion that went into every decision the Church has ever made.
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jmcrae
Guest
The word for Kepha (Rock) in Greek is Petra. It is a feminine noun. Matthew (or whoever was the person who translated Matthew’s Gospel into Greek from the original Aramaic) here has a problem, because Simon is a man. He cannot be named with a feminine noun - it is simply improper. So, he invents a new word, by masculinizing the word Petra, and makes it into Petros, which can now be a man’s name.
When someone names their baby girl after St. Peter, they go through the same process in reverse. A little girl can’t be named a boy’s name, so the parents change it back to Petra. Little Petra, by the time she is about three years old, “gets” that she is named after Peter, with the feminine form of his name. “Petra” and “Petros” are the same word; they are just the masculine and feminine forms of it.
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RobHom
Guest
You already have been. **Christ did not speak GREEK, he spoke Araimic. ** And you have completely missed the context of the scripture. But that is expected since you are immersed in denial of reality. Sorry to be direct that way, but some how it seems you have chosen to embrace the “dark side”.
Consider Mathew 16:16-20 in its entirety and the description that follows that gives the meaning of it all…
**16 Simon Peter answered and said: Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answering, said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven. 18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven. 20 Then he commanded his disciples, that they should tell no one that he was Jesus the Christ.
*18 “Thou art Peter”… As St. Peter, by divine revelation, here made a solemn profession of his faith of the divinity of Christ; so in recompense of this faith and profession, our Lord here declares to him the dignity to which he is pleased to raise him: viz., that he to whom he had already given the name of Peter, signifying a rock, St. John 1. 42, should be a rock indeed, of invincible strength, for the support of the building of the church; in which building he should be, next to Christ himself, the chief foundation stone, in quality of chief pastor, ruler, and governor; and should have accordingly all fulness of ecclesiastical power, signified by the keys of the kingdom of heaven.
18 “Upon this rock”… The words of Christ to Peter, spoken in the vulgar language of the Jews which our Lord made use of, were the same as if he had said in English, Thou art a Rock, and upon this rock I will build my church. So that, by the plain course of the words, Peter is here declared to be the rock, upon which the church was to be built: Christ himself being both the principal foundation and founder of the same. Where also note, that Christ, by building his house, that is, his church, upon a rock, has thereby secured it against all storms and floods, like the wise builder, St. Matt. 7. 24, 25. ***
I realize that you have left the Church and seemingly have “dedicated” yourself to proving your “rectitude” in this decision, but keep in mind…you are only trying to prove something to yourself, and that is that you “think” you know better than all of the Early Christian Fathers, and Christ Himself… Good luck!
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pete_29
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I’m not saying any such thing. I’m saying it was spoken kepha/ kepha. The Church tells me that it would have been grammatically incorrect to call Peter the feminine form of the greek word for rock, and I have no reason to doubt Her.
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believers
Guest
Jesus is building His church on our confession of who Jesus is… just like Peter did!
Mat 16:13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
Mat 16:14 And they said, Some [say that thou art] John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
Mat 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
1Jo 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
1Jo 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
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RobHom
Guest
No, but it would seem that you are attempting to imply that.
The problem is that you don’t want to understand the differences between gender translations from one language to another. It has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit, or God, is has to do with the translation of words from one ancient language to another.
In one argument presented by one of your “brethren” the allegation was that the word “petras” was used to illustrate the point. The individual even used a website as “proof” which had a big “shpiel” about it…but the problem is this: The word “petras” is not in the ancient greek language. Please go here to verify:
kypros.org/cgi-bin/lexicon Just insert the word “petras”, and check the box next to the words “Ancient Greek” and see what the results are. In fact, insert the word “Petros” and check the block then come back and tell us what the word means…its quite informative. Keep in mind though, this is a Greek owned site on the island of Cyprus…and surely they wouldn’t have a clue about ancient Greek…
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brkn1
Guest
You are saying that the Holy Spirit could not inspire clear writing in God’s Word. The Bible requires wise and prudent discussion before it can be understood “correctly”.
When I read or hear these arguments, Jesus’ words always come to mind: (Matt.11:25) " I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes."
The Holy Spirit is the only Revealer of God’s Word to a true seeker. I don’t trust the “wise and prudent” for any truth, unless it is completely supported biblically. No new stuff either. God’s Word is enough with the Spirit’s guidance.
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believers
Guest
Well… that’s what you have to believe over written infallible scripture. “As it was supposedly spoken” takes first place over “as it is written”. Believe what you want.
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RobHom
Guest
And what you are saying is that “you and your kind” are the only people on the face of the earth that can wisely and prudently discuss and understand “correctly”?
If you continue to tell yourself that long enough even you will begin to believe it?
So, what you are saying is:
- Only your kind is smart enough to understand the scriptures.
- If a large amount of scrolls were discovered in a cave, and they were validated as true and exact…you would disbelieve them and their content in any event?
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jmcrae
Guest
The translations and copies are not considered “inspired” - only the originals. The original of the Gospel of Matthew was written in Aramaic; not Greek. And, Jesus was not speaking Greek to Peter, when He was talking to him in person. (And yes, what Jesus actually said is, in fact, more important than any written word.)
So, the Greek translation really has nothing to do with anything.
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RobHom
Guest
No its not how it was “supposedly spoken”…it was how it was spoken. And “as it is written” is entirely dependent upon which one of the myriad many “bibles” you choose to quote from.
To you, I say: Believe what YOU want…
I notice you still haven’t the “petro’s” to answer the ?'s
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believers
Guest
You are not the one who gave them the Title of “Father”. Yes, you use the term “father” but that’s not what I’m referring to. The title of “Father” was given to them by the Vatican. That’s a no no according to the Word of God.The Vatican has never, ever done this.
The proper “official” title of a priest is “Reverend.” If you were writing a formal letter to him, that’s how you would address him.
In the English-speaking world, we affectionately call him Father, because he is in charge of the 'household" of the parish, of which we are like the children, since we are continually going to him to resolve our disputes for us.
In other countries they use terms of affection like “Uncle,” or “Brother,” etc.
But no, the Vatican has never officially conferred the title “Father” on anyone. It’s just an affectionate nickname that we call them, by custom.
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jmcrae
Guest
Show documentation of this, where any Church official was given an official title of “Father” and that it is not just a nickname that is commonly used.
Because according to everything I can find, a priest is officially supposed to be called “Reverend”, and a Bishop is supposed to be called “your Eminence” but there is nothing about calling them “Father” as an official title of theirs. I can see how someone might mistakenly think that it’s their official title, since so many people call them that, but really, it isn’t.
That’s debatable, but I don’t think it has ever really happened, anyway.
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believers
Guest
As defined on the Vatican’s website.Show documentation of this, where any Church official was given an official title of “Father” and that it is not just a nickname that is commonly used.
Because according to everything I can find, a priest is officially supposed to be called “Reverend”, and a Bishop is supposed to be called “your Eminence” but there is nothing about calling them “Father” as an official title of theirs. I can see how someone might mistakenly think that it’s their official title, since so many people call them that, but really, it isn’t.
That’s debatable, but I don’t think it has ever really happened, anyway.
THE HOLY FATHER
The Roman Pontiff, as the successor of Peter, is the perpetual and visible principle and foundation of unity of both the bishops and of the faithful.
LUMEN GENTIUM, 23
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believers
Guest
sorry… gotta run. Have a good night you guys and God Bless you!
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NonCatholic
Guest
This post is for everyone…not specific to Pete.
I wanted to comment on the New Testament and the original language that was used. I am providing a link that gives both sides of the “so-called” controversy on the subject as to whether the OT was written in Aramaic or Greek. On the onset, I will say that the Greek language was not uncommon and the Aramaic was the most common among the Jews and that Latin was also a major language with the Romans. I believe that it was most likely Greek because of the known manuscripts and some other reason mentioned in the link below: Read by parts, I believe at the end you will have to drawl your own conclusion based on the weight of the evidences.
dtl.org/bible/article/language/part_one.htm
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pete_29
Guest
The Holy Spirit did inspire clear writing, it is man who muddies the waters, just like you are doing when you put words in my mouth. I am confused by your first two paragraphs. You claim the Bible needs wise and prudent discussion, then you quote scripture that says things will be hidden from the wise and prudent. I don’t claim to be wise or prudent, but I do have Faith in God, and that Faith is what keeps me in the Catholic Church because the Bible tells me that it is the Church Christ built.
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RobHom
Guest
Provide proof.
Out of context and a misinterpretation of scriptures.
I guess you NEVER called your male genetic parent “Father”, or “Dad” (a vernacular form of Father"…right?
Perhaps you need to view things in a proper context…which frankly seems to be somewhat difficult. You really do need to quit taking “snippets” of scriptures out of context, especially to make false and bogus allegations… Remember what the Bible says about “bearing false witness”?
Read here:
**1 Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to his disciples, 2 Saying: The scribes and the Pharisees have sitten on the chair of Moses. 3 All things therefore whatsoever they shall say to you, observe and do: but according to their works do ye not; for they say, and do not. 4 For they bind heavy and insupportable burdens, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but with a finger of their own they will not move them. 5 And all their works they do for to be seen of men. For they make their phylacteries broad, and enlarge their fringes.
5 “Phylacteries”… that is, parchments, on which they wrote the ten commandments, and carried them on their foreheads before their eyes: which the Pharisees affected to wear broader than other men; so to seem more zealous for the law.
6 And they love the first places at feasts, and the first chairs in the synagogues, 7 And salutations in the market place, and to be called by men, Rabbi. 8 But be not you called Rabbi. For one is your master; and all you are brethren. 9 And call none your father upon earth; for one is your father, who is in heaven. 10 Neither be ye called masters; for one is you master, Christ.
*9 “Call none your father upon earth”… Neither be ye called masters. The meaning is that our Father in heaven is incomparably more to be regarded, than any father upon earth: and no master to be followed, who would lead us away from Christ. But this does not hinder but that we are by the law of God to have a due respect both for our parents and spiritual fathers, (1 Cor. 4. 23: 15,) and for our masters and teachers. ***
Nowhere does it say what you think. The passage tells us not to call anyone our “Master” except God.
Take a break for a few minutes…and go and read this site…it will illuminate you on the subject at hand. I realize you may not, and that will be mostly because you fear any truth that will knock the supports out of your “beliefs”…but here it is anyway:
postscripts.blog.com/2835820/
Read all the way down to here, and then digest this, then keep going…its pretty enlightening, and educational:
***And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.
In English we totally lose the wordplay here, so it’s important to consider how this passage would have sounded as Jesus said it in Aramaic.
And so I say to you, you are Kepha and on this Kepha I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.
The Aramaic, unlike the English, does not leave any room for wiggle room on the antecedants. Jesus is talking about Peter and not Peter’s statement of faith.
Jesus not only continues changing Peter’s name from Simon barJohn to Kepha barJonah; He is setting up an immense visual parallel here. Jesus the True Shepherd is standing at the base of this huge rock with a false church and the center of worship to the false god of sheep and shepherds with a pitiful mockery of the actual gates of death at the base and saying in effect to Kepha barJonah, “You are going to be bigger than this that you see right here. I, the True Shepherd, will build the True Church on you where there will be True Worship not like this false temple where they worship the false god with false worship. Through you will come the source of the True Living Water (remember that this was the headwaters of the Jordan) and the actual gates of hell and not this pathetic mockery of them….will not prevail!!”
But He’s not done yet…there is more…
I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven.
What about the keys? Well remember that the apostles were steeped in the Old Testament. What do the keys represent in the Old Testament? That’s in Isaiah 22
Keep in mind…you are engaged in doing precisely what Sysiphus spent ages doing according to Greek mythology…
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