You don't need to believe in Christ to be saved?

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Melchior:

Br. Rich,

Then why did the Church bother with Evangelization for hundreds of years. Why did Jesus say that he who does not believe is condemned already?

Obviously, know one knows but God. But this does not excuse us from what is revealed does it?

If there ever was a good reason for a non-Catholic Christian to remain non-Catholic this seems to be it. It flatly contradicts the entire message of the New Testament.

Any Catholics out there disagree with the previous responses? Do all roads lead to Heaven for those who try to be good?

Mel

I don’t disagree with you. I don’t like Fr.'s choice of words. The Church says it is possible for a non-Christian to be saved. It does not say how likely it is and I myself would not like to take odds. Your observation is correct those who have had the Gospel presented to them are not likely to be excused. All roads may not lead to Heaven, why take a chance.

 

[estesbob]

Melchior:

Barsapp,

Well I gotta give you points for not shying away from Florence. I respect that. It seems to be that many catholics are not so much clarifying Florence as they are completely contradicting it. That’s how it seems to me anyway. Which is really the crux of this discussion isn’t it?

Its not a mater of many Catholics "claryfying"what was said at Fllorence. Its a matter of the Magestruium claryfying the Church’s teachings regarding salvation outside the Church and Salvation outside of Chritiantiy. I have read both doucuments and find no contradiction BUT more importantly the Magestrium says there is no contradiction.I know this may seem like a simplisitic view to many-espcecially to those who are not Catholic BUT questioning the authority of the Magestrium is as bad as questioning the authority of Scripture,.

 

[barsapp]

Steven Merten:

Hello barsapp,
Which are you saying? That Jesus words telling us that Abraham is in heaven is a lie or that there is a way into heaven for Abraham outside of Jesus death?
Abraham was certianly not a baptized Catholic. Abraham’s salvation is proof that there is salvation outside the Catholic Church. This should be clarified when anyone states, "No Salvation outside the (Catholic) Church.

“Abraham was certianly not a baptized Catholic”
of course! BEFORE Christ nobody was a baptized Catholic!
What i’m saying is that Abraham, Abel, Moses, etc, etc, were saved by Christ, they are in Heaven, only from the moment of Christ’s sacrifice on the Cross, and the situation is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT for those Jews who live AFTER Christ. For the latter applies Matthew 27, 25: “Let his blood be on us and on our children!”

 

[Melchior]

MariaG,

Assuming we know the future and can read the heart of a person. Assuming there is no death bed conversion.

If a person is presented the gospel, actually hears it, and still knowingly rejects Christ, he will go to hell.

Thanks for the straight answer.

You are trying to force Protestant language and culture onto Catholics.

I think you are reaching, respectfully. It has nothing to do with Protestant culture. And discussions of Salvation are (or should be) abundantely Catholic.

But more importantly, why should your mom encourage you back to the Catholic Church? Because you are placing your soul in danger. Did you understand what you left? Probably not, but I would not wish my soul to be hanging on whether or not invincible ignorance applies or not.

And like it or not, believe it or not, you yourself are in the same position that you believe those who have been presented the gospel are. You have left the Church established by Christ. Your soul is in danger of hell. Is that plain speaking enough? (See even here I can’t say you are going to hell because I don’t know what was in your heart was, but the possibility is too large to ignore.)

Thankfully, scripture teaches that ALL those who trust in Him will never be put to shame. I will take the teaching of Christ and the Apostles over yours, again respectfully. I have never rejected Christ I fully trust in Him. Unbelief is the only way to reject Him. Christ and the Church are not the same. The Church is the bride of Christ, not Christ himself. Though I acknowledge the need for the Church and her means of grace. I am just not convinced that I am not in the Church.

:bible1: Colossians 1:18 He is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things he himself might be preeminent.

Christ is the Church. By rejecting the Church that he founded, some would say you have rejected Christ because Christ is the Church. Did you know you were rejecting Christ? Does invincible ignorance apply? Is being here on these forums enough to lose your invincible ignorance, if you ever had it? Is telling you that the Catholic Church is Christ’s Church, that you must become Catholic because I have told you the truth, enough?

See above. The church is the bride of Christ. Not Christ himself.

*Tread lightly my friend. And look into the teaching of the Catholic Church. *

I am and I have been for years.

And please, take these as they are meant. In all honesty, I fear for your immortal soul. Leaving His Church has placed you in serious jeopardy.

The Catholic Church left me, Maria. Christ never did. Those responsible for the care of my soul did not do their job. What’s a 15 year old to do? Stay and starve spiritually? No I think the Bibles says something about teachers being judged more severely. I understand where you are coming from but I will not have the abundant grace that Christ has showered on me these many years since I left a sick (meaning locally) Catholic church. Christ has been with me in miraculous ways. I will admonish you in Christian love to not mock the work of Christ on one of His own, who He has cared for when your church did not. It is a fearful thing to deny the work of the Holy Spirit in a fellow Christians life. If my priests understood the gospel and shared it with me I would have stayed. As it is I had to seek Christ where He could be found at the time.

He does not abandon those who hope in Him.

Mel

 

[Melchior]

Br. Rich SFO:

I don’t disagree with you. I don’t like Fr.'s choice of words. The Church says it is possible for a non-Christian to be saved. It does not say how likely it is and I myself would not like to take odds. Your observation is correct those who have had the Gospel presented to them are not likely to be excused. All roads may not lead to Heaven, why take a chance.

Thanks, Br. Rich.

That is a very helpful clarification.

Mel

 

[estesbob]

Melchior:

MariaG,

The Catholic Church left me, Maria. Christ never did. Those responsible for the care of my soul did not do their job. What’s a 15 year old to do? Stay and starve spiritually? No I think the Bibles says something about teachers being judged more severely. I understand where you are coming from but I will not have the abundant grace that Christ has showered on me these many years since I left a sick (meaning locally) Catholic church. Christ has been with me in miraculous ways and I will warn you in Christian love to not mock the work on Christ on one of His own, who He has cared for when your church did not. It is a fearful thing to deny the work of the Holy Spirit in a fellow Christians life. If your priests understood the gospel and shared it with me I would have stayed. As it is I had to seek Christ where He could be found at the time. He does not abandon those who hope in Him.

Mel

But you are not 15 anymore and you are depriving yourself of much joy and spriritual growth by remaining outside the Church. Come back. please.

 

[barsapp]

Melchior:

The Church is the bride of Christ, not Christ himself. The church is the bride of Christ. Not Christ himself.
The Catholic Church left me. Christ never did.

Christ and the Holy Catholic Church are not different realities. Remember Acts 9, 4-5: “He fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?” He said, “Who are you, sir?” The reply came, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting”.” The fact is that Saul was persecuting the Church. The answer of Christ is clear: to persecute the Church is to persecute me, because Jesus is the Church, the Mystical Body of Christ.
Regarding your “The Catholic Church left me”, it is really hard to understand that. it sounds more than an excuse to avoid personal responsability, with all respect and love.

 

[Della]

“Abraham is in heaven through Jesus” What’s the point here? Abraham lived BEFORE Christ.
“God made a covenant with the Jews”. That covenant ended with Jesus.
“Let his blood be on us and on our children!”

All those of the OT times were waiting for the deliverance of their souls from the place Abraham occupied after his death (a part of heaven but not that which enjoyed the vision of God in his glory). Jesus himself referred to it in the parable about Lazarus and the rich man. When Jesus descended to the dead, he brought forth from there into the fullness of heaven all the righteous of the OT. As for the covenant with the Jews, it was fulfilled in Jesus Christ but not “ended.” The statement of a few Jews at Jesus’ trial did not negate the promises of God made to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. God isn’t finished with the Jewish people. He longs to bring them into the fold of the Messiah, but for many of them that won’t come until their deaths (their having invincible ignorance and insurmountable obstacles in their lives due to the animosity between Christians and Jews down through the centuries) or when Jesus returns. As for those who knowingly and willingly leave the Church, they are in grave danger of losing their salvation, having rejected the very Bride of Christ herself for a watered down version of her.

 

[Steven_Merten]

“Abraham was certianly not a baptized Catholic”
of course! BEFORE Christ nobody was a baptized Catholic!
What i’m saying is that Abraham, Abel, Moses, etc, etc, were saved by Christ, they are in Heaven, only from the moment of Christ’s sacrifice on the Cross, and the situation is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT for those Jews who live AFTER Christ. For the latter applies Matthew 27, 25: “Let his blood be on us and on our children!”

Hello barsapp,

As long as we agree. I once heard even a priest state, “You do not have to be a Catholic to go to heaven, however, all those in heaven are Catholic.” Not true! Abraham is in heaven and he is not a Catholic.

What is true is that everyone in heaven, Catholic or Old Testament Jew, got there through the blood of Jesus.

 

[barsapp]

Della:

As for the covenant with the Jews, it was fulfilled in Jesus Christ but not “ended.” The statement of a few Jews at Jesus’ trial did not negate the promises of God made to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. God isn’t finished with the Jewish people. He longs to bring them into the fold of the Messiah, but for many of them that won’t come until their deaths (their having invincible ignorance and insurmountable obstacles in their lives due to the animosity between Christians and Jews down through the centuries) or when Jesus returns.

well, we have a point here. because the new chosen people is the Catholic Church, not the Jews anymore. And i will say that “fulfilled” and “ended” here have the same meaning.
What is the idea behind trying to justify the Jews?
Is it too difficult to imagine the answer if you ask a Rabbi who Jesus was?

 

[Melchior]

estesbob:

But you are not 15 anymore and you are depriving yourself of much joy and spriritual growth by remaining outside the Church. Come back. please.

Bob,

Honestly, I have been wrestling with it for sometime now. I have children to consider and I am frankly very concerned about their souls in the Catholic church. What I mean is, we are in a church where everyone is committed to Christ. My children are surrounded by people who have Christ as the center of their lives and it shows. The teaching from the pulpit is superior in everyway to any RC homily I have ever heard and it is very catholic. We are not run of the mill Evangelicals. I believe in the real presence etc. I am a catholic in belief, ourt church is eucharistic and liturgical. But in Boston it seems to me that if you want devout Christian kids, they need to be around other devout Christian kids and families. That is simply not a reality in Catholic Churches around here. If I want to have godly Christian friends how am I supposed to meet them in a Catholic Church. People don’t talk or get to know each other after the Mass. No one asks if you need prayer. The opposite may be the reality elsewhere, but not here.

In other words I know what being a catholic kid is like. I wouldn’t wish it on my worst enemy let alone my own children.

If I am in jeopardy for leaving Rome, my children were never in in Rome. Even at their young ages they have such a real, vibrant relationship with Christ and are in a wonderful church. Do I risk their souls by taking them from this? Better for me to lose my soul (God forbid) than for me to jeopardize my childrens faith and thus their souls.

There is my concern in the unfilterered raw. All that said I am closer to considering “coming home” than I ever have been.

Mel

 

[SPOKENWORD]

Della:

All those of the OT times were waiting for the deliverance of their souls from the place Abraham occupied after his death (a part of heaven but not that which enjoyed the vision of God in his glory). Jesus himself referred to it in the parable about Lazarus and the rich man. When Jesus descended to the dead, he brought forth from there into the fullness of heaven all the righteous of the OT. As for the covenant with the Jews, it was fulfilled in Jesus Christ but not “ended.” The statement of a few Jews at Jesus’ trial did not negate the promises of God made to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. God isn’t finished with the Jewish people. He longs to bring them into the fold of the Messiah, but for many of them that won’t come until their deaths (their having invincible ignorance and insurmountable obstacles in their lives due to the animosity between Christians and Jews down through the centuries) or when Jesus returns. As for those who knowingly and willingly leave the Church, they are in grave danger of losing their salvation, having rejected the very Bride of Christ herself for a watered down version of her.

Hi Della, Is the bride of Christ a particular church? I thought I was the bride of Christ being one who follows and obeys Christ. God Bless

 

[Melchior]

barsapp:

Christ and the Holy Catholic Church are not different realities. Remember Acts 9, 4-5: “He fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?” He said, “Who are you, sir?” The reply came, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting”.” The fact is that Saul was persecuting the Church. The answer of Christ is clear: to persecute the Church is to persecute me, because Jesus is the Church, the Mystical Body of Christ.
Regarding your “The Catholic Church left me”, it is really hard to understand that. it sounds more than an excuse to avoid personal responsability, with all respect and love.

Your first point is a good one as far as it goes. But I am not persecuting thew church. I am just not convinced your is the sum total of the church.

As for the second part if I wanted to avoid personal responsibility I would not be a Christian. I would have walked away from Christ and lived a hedonistic life style. All I have ever wanted was Salvation in Christ and to walk with Him all the days of my life. I have failed miserably in the latter, but I have never run from Him for too long. Though I have avoided Him at times.

Mel

 

[1ke]

Wow… you completely and totally missed my point.

Melchior:

Well all I can say to this is - when a young boy in terror about Hell and could not get the simple question how can I be saved? answered by my CCD teachers, my preist etc. and a Protestant comes along and shares the simple gospel of Christ with me I am not too worried.

I’m sorry you felt no adult could answer your question. However, these non-Catholics who “shared a simple Gospel” with you shared a simple, but false Gospel of “assurance of salvation” with you.

Melchior:

Until then I did not know Christ or understand Him as my Savior and Lord.

The same way a Jew or Muslim who may have been told of Christ doesn’t really “know” him as Savior and Lord. It’s so much more complicated in real life than you made it out to be in your original post.

It took a non-Catholic to tell me the Truth. You may be familiar with the Archdiocese of Boston from recent history - it is or was full of hippy or gay priests who were not even close to being equipped to teach anyone anything of eternal importance. Suffice to say the church failed me when I was a frightened, desperate child. Other Christians brought me to Christ and I was truly converted to him. I have never lost faith in Him.

Melchior:

So I am not in anyway in the same boat as an unbeliever. And I would not have elft had I thought Rome had the truth.

Well, certainly you are in the same boat. You a former Catholic has “heard” but not believed. They, a non-Christian, has heard and not believed. And, you said it yourself-- you would not have left had you thought it true. They would join if they thought it true. It’s the same thing.

Melchior:

Interesting that you can be much more certain about me, who has spent most of my life trying (most often failing) to follow Christ faithfully. Yet you are much more certain that nice people who reject Christ will be saved.

I am not certain of anyone’s salvation including my own. My point is that you have less invincible igornance than a non-Christian. But, you have more than a Catholic who has certitude of the Truth of Catholicism. Invincible ignorance is a continuum from 0% to 100%. And, only God knows where on that continuum you lie.

Melchior:

If I remained as a cafeteria catholic would you still be concerned for my soul?

Of course.

 

[Melchior]

1ke:

Wow… you completely and totally missed my point.

I’m sorry you felt no adult could answer your question. However, these non-Catholics who “shared a simple Gospel” with you shared a simple, but false Gospel of “assurance of salvation” with you.

The same way a Jew or Muslim who may have been told of Christ doesn’t really “know” him as Savior and Lord. It’s so much more complicated in real life than you made it out to be in your original post.

It took a non-Catholic to tell me the Truth. You may be familiar with the Archdiocese of Boston from recent history - it is or was full of hippy or gay priests who were not even close to being equipped to teach anyone anything of eternal importance. Suffice to say the church failed me when I was a frightened, desperate child. Other Christians brought me to Christ and I was truly converted to him. I have never lost faith in Him.

Well, certainly you are in the same boat. You a former Catholic has “heard” but not believed. They, a non-Christian, has heard and not believed. And, you said it yourself-- you would not have left had you thought it true. They would join if they thought it true. It’s the same thing.

I am not certain of anyone’s salvation including my own. My point is that you have less invincible igornance than a non-Christian. But, you have more than a Catholic who has certitude of the Truth of Catholicism. Invincible ignorance is a continuum from 0% to 100%. And, only God knows where on that continuum you lie.

Of course.

How do you know I recieved a cheapened version of the Gospel? It was the first time any one ever explained to me that Christ died for me personally and I must follow him. It has never been a false Gospel. It was never easy believism. It was total commitment that was presented to me. With all do respect, were you there? How can you say I was given false gospel. My brother was transformed (believe me he was in bad shape!) overnight when he called on Christ and he is the finest Christian I have ever known to this day. He is the one who led me to Christ. And I have never met a catholic as godly in my life. Know them by their fruits and all that.

It blows my mind that you cannot distinguish between a Jew, a Muslim and a Christian. Following Christ always puts somone in a different category. It is never the same.

Dave

 

[Steven_Merten]

barsapp:

well, we have a point here. because the new chosen people is the Catholic Church, not the Jews anymore. And i will say that “fulfilled” and “ended” here have the same meaning.
What is the idea behind trying to justify the Jews?
Is it too difficult to imagine the answer if you ask a Rabbi who Jesus was?

Hello barsapp,

You are confusing just how Jesus fulfills the law. God’s word states that if man sins, man will die. Man sinned therefore man must die. Jesus fulfills God’s word by dying in sinful man’s place so that man can go to heaven. Jesus fullfilled the law for the Israelites in the same exact way that Jesus fulfills the law for Christians. It is Jesus death on the cross which fulfills God’s covenant and makes peace between Israelites and God as well as peace between Christians and God.

Please visit Peace is an Old Testament Concept

**NAB2 JER 33:6 **

Behold, I will treat and assuage the city’s wounds;** I will heal them, and reveal to them an abundance of lasting peace. I will change the lot of Judah and the lot of Israel,** and rebuild them as of old. I will cleanse them of all the guilt they incurred by sinning against me; all their offenses by which they sinned and rebelled against me, I will forgive. Then Jerusalem shall be my joy, my praise, my glory, before all the nations of the earth, as they hear of all the good I will do among them. They shall be in fear and trembling over all the peaceful benefits I will give her. Thus says the LORD: In this place of which you say, “How desolate it is, without man, without beast!” and in the cities of Judah, in the streets of Jerusalem that are now deserted, without man, without citizen, without beast, there shall yet be heard the cry of joy, the cry of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, the voice of the bride, the sound of those who bring thank offerings to the house of the LORD, singing, **“Give thanks to the LORD of hosts, for the LORD is good; his mercy endures forever.” **For I will restore this country as of old, says the LORD. Thus says the LORD of hosts: In this place, now desolate, without man or beast, and in all its cities there shall again be sheepfolds for the shepherds to couch their flocks. In the cities of the hill country, of the foothills, and of the Negeb, in the land of Benjamin and the suburbs of Jerusalem, and in the cities of Judah, flocks will again pass under the hands of the one who counts them, says the LORD. The days are coming, says the LORD, when **I will fulfill the promise I made to the house of Israel and Judah. In those days, in that time, I will raise up for David a just shoot; he shall do what is right and just in the land. **In those days Judah shall be safe and Jerusalem shall dwell secure; this is what they shall call her: “The LORD our justice.”
NAB COL 1:15 Fullness and Reconciliation.

He is the image of the invisible God, the first born of all creatures. In him everything in heaven and on earth was created, things visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominations, principalities, or powers; all were created through him, and for him. He is before all else that is. In him everything continues in being. It is he who is head of the body, the church; he who is the beginning, the first-born of the dead, so that primacy may be his in everything. It pleased God to make absolute fullness reside in him and, by means of him, to reconcile everything in his person, both on earth and in the heavens, making peace through the blood of his cross.

**NAB2 EZE 37:21 **

**Tell them: Thus speaks the Lord GOD I will take the Israelites from among the nations to which they have come, and gather them from all sides to bring them back to their land. I will make them one nation upon the land, in the mountains of Israel, and there shall be one prince for them all. **Never again shall they be two nations, and never again shall they be divided into two kingdoms. No longer shall they defile themselves with their idols, their abominations, and all their transgressions. I will deliver them from all their sins of apostasy, and cleanse them so that they may be my people and I may be their God. My servant David shall be prince over them, and there shall be one shepherd for them all;

 

[barsapp]

Melchior:

But I am not persecuting thew church. I am just not convinced your is the sum total of the church.

well, i’m not saying that you persecute the church. It was only a quote in order to show you that Christ and the Church are indeed the same. And the sum of all salvation and truth is the Holy Catholic Church. Study, understand, read, try to leave behind personal unhappy experience.

 

[MariaG]

posted by Melchior
I think you are reaching, respectfully. It has nothing to do with Protestant culture. And discussions of Salvation are (or should be) abundantely Catholic.

Respectfully, I disagree. As a revert to the Catholic faith, there is a different language, if you will spoken in protestant churches than in Catholic. As well as there is a definite difference.

An article in This Rock touches on this subject Masculine and Feminine, Evangelical and Catholic.

Thankfully, scripture teaches that ALL those who trust in Him will never be put to shame. I will take the teaching of Christ and the Apostles over yours, again respectfully. I have never rejected Christ I fully trust in Him. Unbelief is the only way to reject Him. Christ and the Church are not the same. The Church is the bride of Christ, not Christ himself. Though I acknowledge the need for the Church and her means of grace. I am just not convinced that I am not in the Church.

The point is just as readily as you assert that just presenting the gospel means a person has heard and therefore is going to hell, is very similar to your situation. You say those have heard the gospel, but then have rejected it. Much as you reject the Catholic position that those who leave the Catholic Church place their soul in immortal danger. Unbelief? You have rejected the teaching of the Catholic Church. What part of the teaching of Christ as present in the Catholic Church is safe not to believe in?

There are many different ways that Christ and the Church have been described. The Scripture I quoted said Christ is the head of the body… The body of Christ is the Church. Is the Church just a vague invisible church or a visible one?

And for the record, I am not convinced that you are not in the Church either. I just am telling you that according to the teachings of the Catholic Church as understood through Scripture and the Magesterium, your soul is in danger by not being part of the visible Catholic Church.

The Catholic Church left me, Maria. Christ never did. Those responsible for the care of my soul did not do their job. What’s a 15 year old to do? Stay and starve spiritually? No I think the Bibles says something about teachers being judged more severely. I understand where you are coming from but I will not have the abundant grace that Christ has showered on me these many years since I left a sick (meaning locally) Catholic church. Christ has been with me in miraculous ways

Yes, those who taught you will be held to a higher level of responsibility.

As someone who also left at age 15, I completely understand where you are coming from. And the priest will have much to answer for.

And what I learned while with my protestant brothers and sisters in Christ, I would not trade. I learned so much from them.
But respectfully, you are no longer 15.

and I will warn you in Christian love to not mock the work on Christ on one of His own, who He has cared for when your church did not. It is a fearful thing to deny the work of the Holy Spirit in a fellow Christians life.

I have never, ever denied the work of the Holy Spirit in you or others. But just as you feel you must preach the gospel in love, so must I. The fact is that the Catholic Church teaches that all who not members of the visible Catholic Church are in greater danger of hell.

If your priests understood the gospel and shared it with me I would have stayed. As it is I had to seek Christ where He could be found at the time.

But as I said before, you are no longer 15. You are an adult now and maybe you need to seek Christ in the Eucharist now.

He does not abandon those who hope in Him.

I pray not. I truly do. But we also know that there will be those who say “Lord, Lord” but He will not know them. I pray for those who like me, left the Catholic Church and ask God for mercy upon them for they “know not what they do”.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[Della]

barsapp:

well, we have a point here. because the new chosen people is the Catholic Church, not the Jews anymore. And i will say that “fulfilled” and “ended” here have the same meaning.
What is the idea behind trying to justify the Jews?
Is it too difficult to imagine the answer if you ask a Rabbi who Jesus was?

It doesn’t matter what any Rabbi might say who Jesus is if that Rabbi has been taught all his life that Jesus was an impostor who started a false sect that was adopted by Gentiles to the ruin of the Jewish people, which is what he no doubt thinks. That is hardly rejecting Christ with full knowledge and consent. I don’t need to “justify” anyone to you or anyone else, including myself. What each person knew and was capable of acting upon is for God to judge. And, there is a big difference between something being fulfilled and being ended. When a man and woman get married their engagement has been fulfilled but their relationship is hardly ended, nor any familial relationships they might have. The Jews are Jesus’ people. Let us leave to Jesus what is to become of them who are unable to see who he is and what he accomplished for them as much as for any of us.

 

[barsapp]

Steven Merten:

You are confusing just how Jesus fulfills the law. God’s word states that if man sins, man will die. Man sinned therefore man must die. Jesus fulfills God’s word by dying in sinful man’s place so that man can go to heaven. Jesus fullfilled the law for the Israelites in the same exact way that Jesus fulfills the law for Christians. It is Jesus death on the cross which fulfills God’s covenant and makes peace between Israelites and God as well as peace between Christians and God.

i pretty understand your point. i’m only saying that the Jews are not ANYMORE the Chosen People as they were in the Old Testament. That relationship/preference ended forever. If you want to say that the covenant with the Jews ENDED because it was FULFILLED, it’s OK. The New Chosen People, the Only Holy New Ark of Salvation is the Catholic Church. Jews are outside. And they are going to be outside until they recognize Christ as the Son of God. There is no salvation in the Old Testament if you don’t recognize Christ as the Son of God.