You don't risk going to Hell if you were never born

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Actually, the risk begins with conception - and conception only happens when the Lord has co-operated, creating the person’s soul.

This means it is God who wants to risk a person.

God is not waiting and watching to see if he must now create a soul because two people are engaging in the marital union of sex, and then waiting to see if there is conjunction in conception, and then jumping up to create a soul.

No, God intends the soul he creates and is the first cause and final cause of all human interaction, such that we move to conceive a child to match his operation, he does not move to match our passions; we are the moved creatures, not the Lord.

We do not risk; our Lord risks.
 
“love” makes the world go round, as
the Song says. w/o “love” babies will
not be possible. if you aborted it or used
contraception, YOU will go to hell, for
killing or preventing life to be formed.
(Artificial insemination is a whole other
topic)
This world we live in here in the First
World countries is a “selfie” generation,
self-love is touted as the way to be, but
God’s kind of “Love” made Him send
His Son to a Criminal’s death, rejected
by His own kindred, all so that WE can
go to heaven and be His - forever, now
that is setting the bar high!!

Concerning the last poster, yes, it IS
God’s will that we procreate, and “whoever
does the will of God will live forever” 1 Jn 2:16
 
joeybaggz said:
ANV, my man, you need to lighten up. Get a cold six pack, watch a great funny movie (my suggestion, Animal House) and chill baby. You are taking things way too seriously.

As to your question, all human life is made in the image and likeness of the God you don’t believe in so you may have a problem with that. But our Catholic belief is that "eye has not seen… the wonders that await all those who follow Him (or some such thing- I’m lousy at verbatim)

In our belief, small children once baptized, probably don’t have the ability to commit so great a wrong that God would exclude them from His presence. Once man reaches an age at which he or she understands the necessity to choose good over evil, life is theirs to live. That’s the great and wonderful adventure, if you choose to live life in that manner.

It seems to me you would prefer all of us to return to the state of mere animals reliant only on instinct and not responsible in any moral sense for our actions???
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Well said. :clapping: (Bolding is mine)
 
ANV said:
Why risk upon your child’s destiny, playing dice with his soul, risking your child going to Hell wouldn’t been there if he was never born.
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You should propose this question to your parents.
 
That article is absurd because NO ONE absolutely NO ONE has any knowledge of how many people are in heaven or will go to heaven.

This is not a teaching of the Church.
 
What I find questionable is that St. Augustine is one of the main influences of these ideas, yet he led an early life with a mistress and other mortal sins.
 
So essentially the picture that most of the saints paint is that a very small amount of people will be saved and go on to eternal life. The rest will be tortured and tormented forever, because they were created with original sin and therefore imperfect. That imperfection makes it inevitable that they will sin and therefore end up tortured forever.

However, clearly from Scripture, murders make it to Heaven, evidenced by Moses, David, etc. Also how about the thief on the cross next to Christ. Yep, he was saved because believed in Jesus at the end.

However, influential Saints such as Augustine, who lived a sex obsessed early life goes on to say “Therefore, few are saved in comparison to those who are damned.” One would most likely to think he believed that he himself was one of the saved.

It all makes the teachings very hard to digest. If one is basically damned to Hell as the default (since few are saved) what rational human being would want to be born in the first place? How is that free will? Free will would be to say, nah, I’m not going to gamble on my low odds, I’ll just remain that existing instead of being tortured for eternity.
 
laylow said:
So essentially the picture that most of the saints paint is that a very small amount of people will be saved and go on to eternal life. The rest will be tortured and tormented forever, because they were created with original sin and therefore imperfect. That imperfection makes it inevitable that they will sin and therefore end up tortured forever.

However, clearly from Scripture, murders make it to Heaven, evidenced by Moses, David, etc. Also how about the thief on the cross next to Christ. Yep, he was saved because believed in Jesus at the end.

However, influential Saints such as Augustine, who lived a sex obsessed early life goes on to say “Therefore, few are saved in comparison to those who are damned.” One would most likely to think he believed that he himself was one of the saved.

It all makes the teachings very hard to digest. If one is basically damned to Hell as the default (since few are saved) what rational human being would want to be born in the first place? How is that free will? Free will would be to say, nah, I’m not going to gamble on my low odds, I’ll just remain that existing instead of being tortured for eternity.
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You wrote: “That imperfection makes it inevitable that they will sin and therefore end up tortured forever.”

That is not an accurate statement of what the Catholic Church teaches, since God gives actual grace to make it possible to overcome the inclination to sin, it is not inevitable.

See the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? 335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it. 336
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation. 337
848 “Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men.” 338

335 Cf. Cyprian, Ep. 73.21:PL 3,1169; De unit.:PL 4,509-536.
336 Lumen Gentium 14; cf. Mk 16:16; Jn 3:5.
337 Lumen GentiumG 16; cf. DS 3866-3872.
338 Ad Gentes 7; cf. Heb 11:6; 1 Cor 9:16.

PL = J.P. Migne, ed., Patroligia Latina (Paris, 1841-1855)
DS = Denzinger-Schonmetzer, Enchiridion Symbolorum, definitionum et declarationum de rebus fidei et morum (1965)​
 
ANV said:
Why risk upon your child’s destiny, playing dice with his soul, risking your child going to Hell wouldn’t been there if he was never born.
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I think the gift of life and all its accompanying joys and pleasures, even including its suffering, is well worth the risk.
 
Vico said:
You wrote: “That imperfection makes it inevitable that they will sin and therefore end up tortured forever.”

That is not an accurate statement of what the Catholic Church teaches, since God gives actual grace to make it possible to overcome the inclination to sin, it is not inevitable.

See the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? 335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it. 336
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation. 337
848 “Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men.” 338

335 Cf. Cyprian, Ep. 73.21:PL 3,1169; De unit.:PL 4,509-536.
336 Lumen Gentium 14; cf. Mk 16:16; Jn 3:5.
337 Lumen GentiumG 16; cf. DS 3866-3872.
338 Ad Gentes 7; cf. Heb 11:6; 1 Cor 9:16.

PL = J.P. Migne, ed., Patroligia Latina (Paris, 1841-1855)
DS = Denzinger-Schonmetzer, Enchiridion Symbolorum, definitionum et declarationum de rebus fidei et morum (1965)​
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Ok, but according to this it would be easier to achieve eternal salvation to be unaware of Christ and the Gospel?
 
laylow said:
Ok, but according to this it would be easier to achieve eternal salvation to be unaware of Christ and the Gospel?
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No, because it is easier to “seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will” with the Church and the sacraments.
 
meltzerboy said:
I think the gift of life and all its accompanying joys and pleasures, even including its suffering, is well worth the risk.
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Amen.
The only folks who “risk” are those selfish people who don’t WANT to teach a child in a faith.
Who don’t WANT to take the time to teach them morals.
Those who don’t WANT to do the heavy lifting of parenthood…which is a beautiful vocation.

It’s selfishness. Plain and simple. “I can’t be bothered with doing the right thing. I don’t want to be BURDENED with teaching another human”.

In a way, I’m kind of grateful that these navel gazers don’t reproduce. How miserable their children would be… …because their parents are “glass half full” types of people.
Those who look for pain, tend to find it.
 
meltzerboy said:
I think the gift of life and all its accompanying joys and pleasures, even including its suffering, is well worth the risk.
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Really? Even if your chances of eternal life are .0001% and eternal torture are 99.999?
 
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