You don't risk going to Hell if you were never born

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laylow said:
Actually all the child needs to do is have sex with his girlfriend at 16 years old and then die in a car accident on his way home and he has eternal torture. You could raise them near perfect, but one slip up and you’re burning forever and ever and ever and ever…yep still burning billions of years later…
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You are truly off base. Repentance is all that is needed. God is merciful and all are welcome to the kingdom of heaven.
 
pianistclare said:
That article is absurd because NO ONE absolutely NO ONE has any knowledge of how many people are in heaven or will go to heaven.

This is not a teaching of the Church.
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Christ Himself said few will find the narrow way while many will go into the path of destruction.

Some of the posts in this forum would accuse Christ Himself of heresy.

‘Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there are who go in thereat. How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way that leadeth to life: and few there are that find it!’

Matthew 7:13-14
 
laylow said:
The church does not condemn it either.
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Without special revelation the numbers cannot certainly be known because without special revelation the individual’s certain salvation cannot be know.

Council of Trent, SESSION VI (Jan. 13, 1547)

Chap. 12. Rash Presumption of Predestination is to be Avoided

805 No one moreover, so long as he lives in this mortal state, ought so far to presume concerning the secret mystery of divine predestination, as to decide for certain that he is assuredly in the number of the predestined [can. 15], as if it were true that he who is justified either cannot sin any more [can. 23], or if he shall have sinned, that he ought to promise himself an assured reformation. For except by special revelation, it cannot be known whom God has chosen for Himself [can. 16].

825 Can. 15. If anyone shall say that a man who is born again and justified is bound by faith to believe that he is assuredly in the number of the predestined: let him be anathema [cf. n. 805].

833 Can. 23. If anyone shall say that a man once justified can sin no more, nor lose grace, and that therefore he who falls and sins was never truly justified; or, on the contrary, that throughout his whole life he can avoid all sins even venial sins, except by a special privilege of God, as the Church holds in regard to the Blessed Virgin: let him be anathema [cf. n. 805, 810].

826 Can. 16. If anyone shall say that he will for certain with an absolute and infallible certainty have that great gift of perseverance up to the end, unless he shall have learned this by a special revelation: let him be anathema [cf. n.805ff.].

Number references from Denzinger Sources of Catholic Dogma.
patristica.net/denzinger/#n800
 
laylow said:
His overactive hormones allowed him to make a mistake of eternal proportions. However, our great theologian that basically “created” eternal Hell, was a sex-crazed maniac in his young days and even had a son out of wedlock with a mistress.
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Hormones don’t allow anything. They are chemicals. And even a `16 year old with raging hormones can keep his pants zipped. Hormones do not overcome choice; the 16 year old has free will and chooses evil. Hormones do not choose evil, as they are not sentient.

And he did not make a mistake of any sort at all. He made a choice. Let’s not play word games. Go read my post again.

Augustine did not create, or even basically create hell. Hell is the absence of God, and the absence of any good whatsoever.

Hell is not fire, as fire is a chemical reaction to physical things, and hell is not a place., It is a state of being, freely chosen.

As to Augustine being a sex-crazed maniac, he was a libertine. And yes, he had a child out of wedlock, and eventually he reconciled with the Church and God, and went on to become a saint. And other than stating facts, you have made no point.
 
otjm said:
It is not “one slip”. It is a choice; and actually, it is a series of choices.

“one slip” is the mantra of people who are not willing to face the fact that they make choices, and those choices have consequences.

"Oh, I made a “mistake”.

No, that was not a mistake. A mistake is wearing a polka dot tie with a stripped shirt.

It was a choice;; and it was a choice for evil, not for good. In old fashioned language, which didn’t weasel about choices, that was a sin.

But with the “new” definition of morality, no one sins - they just make “mistakes”.

The Bible, however, was not built on secularism and word games.

Which is not to say that God does not have mercy - that was exhibited by Christ on the cross, to the “good thief” (Luke 23: 39-43); but mercy is not a “get-out-of-jail-card”; it requires repentance.

You are playing a word game on about the level of a sophomore. “But!” “But!” “But!”. There is nothing particularly hard about what it takes to get to heaven:: “Love one another as I have loved you” is a self-giving, sacrificial placing of the other’s needs over your own wants. Not a particularly difficult concept to grasp.

But due to our own selfish and self-centered predilections, it is hard to do. Clearly not impossible, but definitely hard, because we want what we want - not what Christ asks of us.

It is really kind of simple. I seriously doubt that you would have a best friend who was selfish and self centered, and used you for whatever they want, never mind what it costs of you.

You might say they are a “best friend”, but in truth what they are is an acquaintance. Friends don’t use friends.

And Christ expects the same from us.

And your 16 year old doesn’t “have eternal torture”. He creates that torture. God doesn’t send him to hell; he chooses hell. Oh - there is that word “choice” again.

As long as you want to go around treating choices you or others make as “mistakes”, there is no intelligent conversation which can be had, because to do so is to be in total denial that you or others make a choice, and that is choosing evil over good.

A mistake is walking out the door and locking it behind you without checking to see if you have the key to get back in.

The attitude that “I made a mistake” is part and parcel of why we have over 59,600,000 abortions since Roe vs. Wade - because people choose evil over good. It has consequences (a baby), and they don’t want to deal with it, so they kill the baby. But that baby was not a “mistake” it was the natural result of intercourse, and intercourse outside of marriage is not a mistake; it is a choice. And it is a choice of evil, not good.
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Well said. :clapping:
 
laylow said:
So Fewness of the Saved, stated by many “Saints” is not Catholic viewpoint?
catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/ecumenism/fewsave.htm
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This is a superb example of “selective reading.” Many apologists bent on hell and brimstone love to quote this sermon. Yet hardly a one of these who refer to it have read this critical paragraph:
The following narrative from Saint Vincent Ferrer will show you what you may think about it. He relates that an archdeacon in Lyons gave up his charge and retreated into a desert place to do penance, and that he died the same day and hour as Saint Bernard. After his death, he appeared to his bishop and said to him, “Know, Monsignor, that at the very hour I passed away, thirty-three thousand people also died. Out of this number, Bernard and myself went up to heaven without delay, three went to purgatory, and all the others fell into Hell.”

I am very sorry that St. Leonard accepted a second-hand hearsay report without a shred of evidence and without investigating. He should never have repeated it as though it were infallible. This was simply related by an unknown “archdeacon” who supposedly appeared after his death to his (unnamed) bishop with this unsubstantiated statistic. Visions are never to be accepted as true without Church approval, let alone second hand ones. This sermon has done very serious harm to those who read it without taking this paragraph into account.

As for your comment about St .Augustine, I am going out on a limb here to state something very private. When I (and certainly St. Augustine) received the grace of conversion, it was so powerful that in over 45 years, I can honestly say I have not committed a mortal sin. Venial sins, yes, though they are few and far between in my later life. I know first hand that it can be done. Why? **Solely out of absolute love for Christ Jesus! **

Remember the scripture about the woman who wiped Jesus’ feet with her tears? He remarked for all the world to read in perpetuity that many sins are forgiven her because she has LOVED MUCH. biblehub.com/luke/7-47.htm

When one has love, one will not make the “choice” to get caught in mortal sin and then worry about dying in that condition. Let’s move the focus to deep love of God and then there will be no such need for a topic of this kind. Isn’t that the first and most important commandment?
 
otjm said:
Hormones don’t allow anything. They are chemicals. And even a `16 year old with raging hormones can keep his pants zipped. Hormones do not overcome choice; the 16 year old has free will and chooses evil. Hormones do not choose evil, as they are not sentient.

And he did not make a mistake of any sort at all. He made a choice. Let’s not play word games. Go read my post again.

Augustine did not create, or even basically create hell. Hell is the absence of God, and the absence of any good whatsoever.

Hell is not fire, as fire is a chemical reaction to physical things, and hell is not a place., It is a state of being, freely chosen.

As to Augustine being a sex-crazed maniac, he was a libertine. And yes, he had a child out of wedlock, and eventually he reconciled with the Church and God, and went on to become a saint. And other than stating facts, you have made no point.
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The point I was making is that based on teaching, Augustine is in Heaven (Canonized) and this kid in the example is most likely being tortured forever because he happened to die before repenting. It’s illogical and doesn’t paint the picture of our forgiving Lord. The kid is most likely sorry, just didn’t have the time to confession it.
 
laylow said:
The point I was making is that based on teaching, Augustine is in Heaven (Canonized) and this kid in the example is most likely being tortured forever because he happened to die before repenting. It’s illogical and doesn’t paint the picture of our forgiving Lord. The kid is most likely sorry, just didn’t have the time to confession it.
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Catechism

1452 When it arises from a love by which God is loved above all else, contrition is called “perfect” (contrition of charity). Such contrition remits venial sins; it also obtains forgiveness of mortal sins if it includes the firm resolution to have recourse to sacramental confession as soon as possible.51
 
laylow said:
The point I was making is that based on teaching, Augustine is in Heaven (Canonized) and this kid in the example is most likely being tortured forever because he happened to die before repenting. It’s illogical and doesn’t paint the picture of our forgiving Lord. The kid is most likely sorry, just didn’t have the time to confession it.
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As long as he is sorry, no problem. That’s what repentance means.
 
laylow said:
What if he killed himself out of remorse for making a bad decision?
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I am sure God would be merciful to him if he was sorry for his actions. But actually, to kill yourself for something like that implies he was out of his mind, and I think the Catholic church has a clause for people not in their right mind not being responsible for their suicides. Correct me if I am wrong.
 
CHRISTINE77 said:
I am sure God would be merciful to him if he was sorry for his actions. But actually, to kill yourself for something like that implies he was out of his mind, and I think the Catholic church has a clause for people not in their right mind not being responsible for their suicides. Correct me if I am wrong.
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I believe you are correct.
 
Dear friends,

The OP, though needlessly combative in my opinion, raises an interesting question. Does the Catholic church have a position on the eternal fate of an aborted fetus? In fact, I’m not sure whether Catholics believe in infant damnation.

Any clarification would be appreciated.

As ever, Jesse
 
Sirach2 said:
This is a superb example of “selective reading.” Many apologists bent on hell and brimstone love to quote this sermon. Yet hardly a one of these who refer to it have read this critical paragraph:
The following narrative from Saint Vincent Ferrer will show you what you may think about it. He relates that an archdeacon in Lyons gave up his charge and retreated into a desert place to do penance, and that he died the same day and hour as Saint Bernard. After his death, he appeared to his bishop and said to him, “Know, Monsignor, that at the very hour I passed away, thirty-three thousand people also died. Out of this number, Bernard and myself went up to heaven without delay, three went to purgatory, and all the others fell into Hell.”

I am very sorry that St. Leonard accepted a second-hand hearsay report without a shred of evidence and without investigating. He should never have repeated it as though it were infallible. This was simply related by an unknown “archdeacon” who supposedly appeared after his death to his (unnamed) bishop with this unsubstantiated statistic. Visions are never to be accepted as true without Church approval, let alone second hand ones. This sermon has done very serious harm to those who read it without taking this paragraph into account.

As for your comment about St .Augustine, I am going out on a limb here to state something very private. When I (and certainly St. Augustine) received the grace of conversion, it was so powerful that in over 45 years, I can honestly say I have not committed a mortal sin. Venial sins, yes, though they are few and far between in my later life. I know first hand that it can be done. Why? **Solely out of absolute love for Christ Jesus! **

Remember the scripture about the woman who wiped Jesus’ feet with her tears? He remarked for all the world to read in perpetuity that many sins are forgiven her because she has LOVED MUCH. biblehub.com/luke/7-47.htm

When one has love, one will not make the “choice” to get caught in mortal sin and then worry about dying in that condition. Let’s move the focus to deep love of God and then there will be no such need for a topic of this kind. Isn’t that the first and most important commandment?
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So Christ’s words in Matthew 7:13-14 are wrong?
 
James248 said:
So Christ’s words in Matthew 7:13-14 are wrong?
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Did I say that?

Read my post again. I was critiquing people who readily accept and believe visions from unnamed and unproven sources and repeat them, doing much harm to those who are scrupulous who put their faith in them. The Church does not even accept authentic visionaries’ accounts until very much study and thorough examination has been made.

St. Leonard was far too willing to believe an archdeacon of no repute without further examination. That is a no-no. He probably mentioned the story off the cuff, but naysayers ran with it and reprinted it, since they now have a saint to make it all come true.
 
ANV said:
Me?

By having a child, you put them at the risk of going to Hell, such a child would not be there if the child was never born.
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I thought atheists didn’t believe in Hell any more than the believed in God and Heaven?
 
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