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aspirant
Guest
Or passport. Or family photo albums.
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aspirant
Guest
Inasmuch as the KJV translators borrowed heavily from Catholic translators, we sort of did.
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JRKH
Guest
Lets try to get back to basics here and summarize a bit.
Title of thread is:
“You gave it to us…. lets read
Yes we gave the bible to you (Protestants) and the first thing you did was to declare it the sole rule of faith and THEN change it by the removal of entire books. Scripture that was held as part of the biblical canon for 1000 years, approved by multiple church councils, were summarily discarded by a few men acting outside of the Church.
Then you wish to teach us the meaning of the texts, by personal interpretation that cannot even be agreed to by the protestant Christian community as a whole, to show us the “error of our ways.”
The second Reference
“Romans 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.”
If we look at the larger passage we see that Paul is talking about those who change the “Truth of God” and “ worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator”.
Catholics do not do that in their use of statuary so the passage in Romans does not fit.
The first and third references
Deuteronomy 4:16 Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female,
Exodus 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
Now – Both of these relate DIRECTLY to the ten commandments – and really are the crux of your argument.
But consider what they say - consider it carefully. These make no distinction about religious statuary or secular. In addition it is not limited to people but it says ANY THING and ANY IMAGE.
So people here have rightly asked you about non-religious images you might have of, ”any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth”
Let us consider what this prohibits in today’s world just by reading this commandment as written.
No Mt Rushmore, Lincoln statue or any other statue of a public figure.
No photographs, paintings, drawings etc. of people places or things
Many toys violate this commandment as well because they are “images” of things.
No Dolls, toy cars or trains or farm sets with animals. No action figures. And heaven forbid we give a child “play-dough”, the very thing that teaches them to make graven images of things in heaven on earth and below the earth. The list can go on and on.
This then is what we see when we take the commandment – As Written – and apply it – As Written.
So then, dear friend in Christ, I am sure you do not object to Mt Rushmore, or to Baby dolls for children or to pictures of family members, alive or long dead, or of cows or horses etc in books. Thus I suggest that, even you would like to place conditions on the commandment as written, and the differences we have are in just what conditions are to be placed upon the commandment.
Peace
Title of thread is:
“You gave it to us…. lets read
Yes we gave the bible to you (Protestants) and the first thing you did was to declare it the sole rule of faith and THEN change it by the removal of entire books. Scripture that was held as part of the biblical canon for 1000 years, approved by multiple church councils, were summarily discarded by a few men acting outside of the Church.
Then you wish to teach us the meaning of the texts, by personal interpretation that cannot even be agreed to by the protestant Christian community as a whole, to show us the “error of our ways.”
The second Reference
“Romans 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.”
If we look at the larger passage we see that Paul is talking about those who change the “Truth of God” and “ worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator”.
Catholics do not do that in their use of statuary so the passage in Romans does not fit.
The first and third references
Deuteronomy 4:16 Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female,
Exodus 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
Now – Both of these relate DIRECTLY to the ten commandments – and really are the crux of your argument.
But consider what they say - consider it carefully. These make no distinction about religious statuary or secular. In addition it is not limited to people but it says ANY THING and ANY IMAGE.
So people here have rightly asked you about non-religious images you might have of, ”any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth”
Let us consider what this prohibits in today’s world just by reading this commandment as written.
No Mt Rushmore, Lincoln statue or any other statue of a public figure.
No photographs, paintings, drawings etc. of people places or things
Many toys violate this commandment as well because they are “images” of things.
No Dolls, toy cars or trains or farm sets with animals. No action figures. And heaven forbid we give a child “play-dough”, the very thing that teaches them to make graven images of things in heaven on earth and below the earth. The list can go on and on.
This then is what we see when we take the commandment – As Written – and apply it – As Written.
So then, dear friend in Christ, I am sure you do not object to Mt Rushmore, or to Baby dolls for children or to pictures of family members, alive or long dead, or of cows or horses etc in books. Thus I suggest that, even you would like to place conditions on the commandment as written, and the differences we have are in just what conditions are to be placed upon the commandment.
Peace
T
Teneas
Guest
Well I was going to post…but think this thread has already been summed up nicely. 
Look at my mothers photo to remember the things she said and did
Worship my mothers photo and think it is God.
Look at my mothers photo to remember the things she said and did
Worship my mothers photo and think it is God.
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Randy_Carson
Guest
Let’s see what else the Bible has to say, shall we?
People who oppose religious statuary forget about the many passages where the Lord commands the making of statues. For example:
“And you shall make two cherubim of gold *; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece of the mercy seat shall you make the cherubim on its two ends. The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubim be” (Ex. 25:18–20).
David gave Solomon the plan
“for the altar of incense made of refined gold, and its weight; also his plan for the golden chariot of the cherubim that spread their wings and covered the ark of the covenant of the Lord. All this he made clear by the writing of the hand of the Lord concerning it all, all the work to be done according to the plan” (1 Chr. 28:18–19).
David’s plan for the temple, which the biblical author tells us was “by the writing of the hand of the Lord concerning it all,” included statues of angels.
Similarly Ezekiel 41:17–18 describes graven (carved) images in the idealized temple he was shown in a vision, for he writes, “On the walls round about in the inner room and [on] the nave were carved likenesses of cherubim.”
The Religious Uses of Images
During a plague of serpents sent to punish the Israelites during the exodus, God told Moses to
“make [a statue of] a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it shall live. So Moses made a bronze serpent, and set it on a pole; and if a serpent bit any man, he would look at the bronze serpent and live” (Num. 21:8–9).
One had to look at the bronze statue of the serpent to be healed, which shows that statues could be used ritually, not merely as religious decorations.
Catholics use statues, paintings, and other artistic devices to recall the person or thing depicted. Just as it helps to remember one’s mother by looking at her photograph, so it helps to recall the example of the saints by looking at pictures of them. Catholics also use statues as teaching tools. In the early Church they were especially useful for the instruction of the illiterate. Many Protestants have pictures of Jesus and other Bible pictures in Sunday school for teaching children. Catholics also use statues to commemorate certain people and events, much as Protestant churches have three-dimensional nativity scenes at Christmas.
If one measured Protestants by the same rule, then by using these “graven” images, they would be practicing the “idolatry” of which they accuse Catholics. But there’s no idolatry going on in these situations. God forbids the* worship* of images as gods, but he doesn’t ban the making of images. If he had, religious movies, videos, photographs, paintings, and all similar things would be banned. But, as the case of the bronze serpent shows, God does not even forbid the ritual use of religious images.
It is when people begin to adore a statue as a god that the Lord becomes angry. Thus when people did start to worship the bronze serpent as a snake-god (whom they named “Nehushtan”), the righteous king Hezekiah had it destroyed (2 Kgs. 18:4).
Taken from:
Do Catholics Worship Statues?
catholic.com/library/Do_Catholics_Worship_Statues.asp*
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Randy_Carson
Guest
That’s not really what you want.
What you want is an opportunity to accuse Catholics of disobeying God, and you seek to do this by lifting a few verses out of context and applying them to us incorrectly. I have given you more context in my post above.
Once you get bored with this topic, you can repeat the process by quoting “Call no man father” in a new thread.
That should be a real hoot.
D
Darron_Steele
Guest
Let me quote one of these passages: From Exodus 20:“4Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. 5Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them, for I Jehovah thy God am a jealous God,” --ASVThe concept here is clearly that the objectionable images were those “graven” for a person to “bow down” to or to “serve” as god/s in rival to God.
I agree with the Catholics here: images as used in Catholic worship are not what is prohibited here or in similar passages.
Oh, and no Truthseeker123, I do not use statues or icons in worship.
I agree with the Catholics here: images as used in Catholic worship are not what is prohibited here or in similar passages.
Oh, and no Truthseeker123, I do not use statues or icons in worship.
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Teneas
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twopekinguys
Guest
Well, it looks like the OP has abandoned this thread (Wonder why), only to move on and create more. 
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rev_kevin
Guest
I think we need to look at the word “graven.”
Graven: to carve or shape with a chisel {sculpture}. To carve or cut {as letters or figures}into a hard surface. To impress or fix deeply.
So a picture or photo is not a graven image.
J
JRKH
Guest
Exodus is not so specific.
Exodus 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, **OR any likeness of any thing **that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
So the Exodus of the OP says “graven image” or any other kind of image.
Of course even if we take your position of forbidding only carved or sculpted images, then things like Mt Rushmore, Lincolns statue in Washington, Nelson in Trafalgar Square etc are all Forbidden by the precise reading of the text posted by seeker.
Peace
James
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rev_kevin
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rev_kevin
Guest
I just gave a defination of what it meant.
Exodus 20:4
The Israelites had just come from Egypt, a land of many idols and many gods. Because each god represented a different aspect of life, ti was common to worship many gods in order to get the maximum number of blessings. When God told his people to worship and believe in him, that wasn’t so hard for them, he was just one more god to add to the list. But when he said, "Worship only me, " that was difficult for the people to accept. But if they didn’t learn that the God who led them out of Egypt was the only God, they could not be his people, no matter how faithfully the kept the other 9 commandments. So God made this his first commandment and emphasized it more than the others.
Today we can allow many things to become gods to us. Money, fame, work. or pleasure can bscomegods when we concentrate too much on them for personal identity, meaning and security. No one sets out with the intention of worshiping these things.
J
JRKH
Guest
Nicely put - Conversely - something that may have been a real danger 2500 - 3000 years ago may not be nearly so much a danger today.
But the OP is not interested in what it means. He is hammering at what it says and is dismissing our explanations.
Today there are also many god’s who go by many names and many people worship them. Finances, sex, fashion, popularity, are all things that distract us from that which should be the True focus. Love God - Love God’s Love, and Love our Neighbor for the Love of God.
Like a Pharasee, Truth Seeker is hammering at a particular part of Law, the making of images. He is not concerned with how these are used, only that they exist.
Personally I find it interesting that, when Jesus was asked what the greatest commandment was, images were never mentioned. Love was mentioned.
You Shall LOVE - God and Neighbor.
All other things must be understood through this Law of Love as received directly from Christ Himself. Understand this Love and all else comes into focus.
Peace
James
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rev_kevin
Guest
You are so correct that the greatest commandment is Love God and your Neighbor.
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