"You shall not bow down to them or worship them"

[Filioque]

(Deuteronomy 5:8-9):
"You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me".

I understand that Christians do not worship the statues inside most Churches, but how to justify the “no bow down” command shown above since I see many persons bow down to the statues and to the pictures inside those Churches!

While the Living Bible translation you’ve chosen to use combined with the anti-Catholic misrepresentation that Catholics are preforming statue worship, misleads one to believe that we are ignoring or not following the Sacred Scriptures other versions both Protestant and Catholic, including the KJV and D-R instruct us that we not bow down to them or serve them. As we are not serving the idols, but using them in the same manner as God allowed in the OT, this really a long ago disproved straw man argument. If you had some proof that Catholic teachings or practice was to serve the graven image, well you may have an argument. Since such practices are not Catholic, you will have to try some other tactic. But as the Catholic Church has preached the full Gospel for nearly 2000 years,I can’t think of anything you can find which will change the truth.

 

[JRKH]

While the Living Bible translation you’ve chosen to use combined with the anti-Catholic misrepresentation that Catholics are preforming statue worship, misleads one to believe that we are ignoring or not following the Sacred Scriptures other versions both Protestant and Catholic, including the KJV and D-R instruct us that we not bow down to them or serve them. As we are not serving the idols, but using them in the same manner as God allowed in the OT, this really a long ago disproved straw man argument. If you had some proof that Catholic teachings or practice was to serve the graven image, well you may have an argument. Since such practices are not Catholic, you will have to try some other tactic. But as the Catholic Church has preached the full Gospel for nearly 2000 years,I can’t think of anything you can find which will change the truth.

Excellent Post…

If I may play “devil’s advocate” for a moment…
What would constitute “serving” the statue (the idol)?

Every May I see Statue’s of Our Lady bedecked in crowns of flowers and extra flowers around the base. Years ago (when I was in School) we had a "May procession and “May Crowning” where the statue received the crown of flowers. In some places the statue is taken from Church and processed through the streets with great pomp and celebration
Would any of this count as “serving”?
What about the case where a person might write a special intention on a bit of paper and leave it at the foot of the statue or nearby - would this be "serving the statue?

Without a doubt - dusting, cleaning, repainting and other things are “serving” (or servicing) the statue but these could hardly be seen as inappropriate. Such things are simply a part of the normal maintenance of items in the Church or on the grounds.

Like I say - I’m just playing “devil’s advocate” here…
What would constitute “serving”?

Peace
James

 

[Goya]

Excellent Post…

If I may play “devil’s advocate” for a moment…
What would constitute “serving” the statue (the idol)?

Every May I see Statue’s of Our Lady bedecked in crowns of flowers and extra flowers around the base. Years ago (when I was in School) we had a "May procession and “May Crowning” where the statue received the crown of flowers. In some places the statue is taken from Church and processed through the streets with great pomp and celebration
Would any of this count as “serving”?
What about the case where a person might write a special intention on a bit of paper and leave it at the foot of the statue or nearby - would this be "serving the statue?

Without a doubt - dusting, cleaning, repainting and other things are “serving” (or servicing) the statue but these could hardly be seen as inappropriate. Such things are simply a part of the normal maintenance of items in the Church or on the grounds.

Like I say - I’m just playing “devil’s advocate” here…
What would constitute “serving”?

Peace
James

Understanding your perspective as devil’s ad…

The distinction is quite simply in to whom the veneration is directed. If one is decorating the statue (or dusting it) for the glory of the statue, that would constitute idolatry. If one does it for the honor and glory of God, via St. Mary, whom is directly represented by the statue, then it is appropriate.

This reminds me of a discussion I’ve had repeatedly with my protestant wife. I maintain that a Catholic would sooner take a baseball bat to a statue of the Virgin Mary, if s/he were pressed to do so, in order to demonstrate that it is not idolotry–than a protestant would take a match to a bible–notwithstanding the fact that bibles–especially protestant bibles–are so common, and even cheap.

Now, let’s pose the same hypo. to our muslim friend:

Would a musliim sooner take a match to a copy of the qu’ran, than a Catholic take a baseball bat to statue of the Virgin Mary, to demonstrate that neither is idolotry?

I’d wager the latter would occur far more readily than the former–if the former could even be admitted to ever happening.

Doubt me? Ok then…let’s step out of hypo-world, and talk reality: does anyone not remember how much blowback came from reports that that copies of the qu’ran was being burned at Gitmo? Or when that idiot from Wesboro Baptist actually filemed and broadcast burnings of copies of the qu’ran?

…meanwhile, in NYC, San Fran, and other metros, there are repeatedly art displays, mocking images of Christ and the Virgin Mary–which garner expressions of protest–but not acts of violence, or even calls for such.

That’s not to say that we don’t take proper offense to such displays, which of course are naturally intended to offend–but it’s not like we actually think that the Christ himeself has been doused in urnine (as one example), by the blasphemous representation of an image being treated so.

We protect and venerate the images for what they represent–no different than the respect we show the flag of the US (when we see someone burning a US flag, do we lament: “…oh no, Wyoming just went up in flames” as a star we presume represents WY, is consumed by flame? of course not…). This is because we do not worship the objects themselves. That would be idolotry.

Showing respect to the images is frankly, a matter of convenience–a devotianal aid that helps focus the mind on the true object of our veneration–the intangible, invisible, reality represented by the tangible, visible image–and further still, the veneration directed to Saints, is for the honor and glory of God–the ultimate object of all our worship and prayer–ours, joined with the subject Saints’–because that is also to whom their honor, glory and worship is directed.

 

[Goya]

^^^Just to clarify my point above–I’m surely not advocating destruction of statues of saints–however, as an example of when such might be appropriate–suppose your children don’t get the distinction–they see you praying before a statue of the BVM; they do the same; they start making comments suggesting that the statue itself, brings them good luck; they betray manifestatios of superstition, concerning the statue; they don’t care about going to mass, or reading teh bible, because they just feel like they can just pray to the statue; it becomes apparent that to them, the statue is ‘the thing’; you talk to them at length, but cannot seem to make any headway…

In such a circumstance, it might be appropriate to destroy the statue–visibly–in order to make the point clear, that it is not the statue, but what it represents, that is important.

 

[Filioque]

^^^Just to clarify my point above–I’m surely not advocating destruction of statues of saints–however, as an example of when such might be appropriate–suppose your children don’t get the distinction–they see you praying before a statue of the BVM; they do the same; they start making comments suggesting that the statue itself, brings them good luck; they betray manifestatios of superstition, concerning the statue; they don’t care about going to mass, or reading teh bible, because they just feel like they can just pray to the statue; it becomes apparent that to them, the statue is ‘the thing’; you talk to them at length, but cannot seem to make any headway…

In such a circumstance, it might be appropriate to destroy the statue–visibly–in order to make the point clear, that it is not the statue, but what it represents, that is important.

There would seem to be a failure on two levels here. First the obligation of the parent to raise the children in the Faith, and secondly if the partents had done so to the best of their ability discovered that the children held beliefs contrary to Catholic teachings, then one would have to re-educate them.

Stretching the anology. If a child was to not give their grand-parents the respect and honor due to them, should we euthanize the grands? Or should we teach them proper respect?

 

[Filioque]

Excellent Post…

If I may play “devil’s advocate” for a moment…
What would constitute “serving” the statue (the idol)?

Every May I see Statue’s of Our Lady bedecked in crowns of flowers and extra flowers around the base. Years ago (when I was in School) we had a "May procession and “May Crowning” where the statue received the crown of flowers. In some places the statue is taken from Church and processed through the streets with great pomp and celebration
Would any of this count as “serving”?
What about the case where a person might write a special intention on a bit of paper and leave it at the foot of the statue or nearby - would this be "serving the statue?

Without a doubt - dusting, cleaning, repainting and other things are “serving” (or servicing) the statue but these could hardly be seen as inappropriate. Such things are simply a part of the normal maintenance of items in the Church or on the grounds.

Like I say - I’m just playing “devil’s advocate” here…
What would constitute “serving”?

Peace
James

Would putting flowers next to a photo of one’s loved one who has passed away, or framing the photo with a nice frame be honoring their memory, and confidence that their souls are still alive, or is it serving the dead relative now embodied in the Photo? Do thier souls continue to live in Purgatory or Heaven, awaiting the general resurrection of the body, or does the image now become them? If you are in favor of the first option you are Catholic, if it is the Second, then you are something else.

 

[JRKH]

Would putting flowers next to a photo of one’s loved one who has passed away, or framing the photo with a nice frame be honoring their memory, and confidence that their souls are still alive, or is it serving the dead relative now embodied in the Photo? Do thier souls continue to live in Purgatory or Heaven, awaiting the general resurrection of the body, or does the image now become them? If you are in favor of the first option you are Catholic, if it is the Second, then you are something else.

This is a good explanation of the meaning behind our actions relative to things like a May crowning and such but doesn’t answer the question I was asking…Maybe I wasn’t clear…

In the context of the command to not bow or serve the graven images (statues).
What would constitute “Serving” them?

Peace
James

 

[Filioque]

This is a good explanation of the meaning behind our actions relative to things like a May crowning and such but doesn’t answer the question I was asking…Maybe I wasn’t clear…

In the context of the command to not bow or serve the graven images (statues).
What would constitute “Serving” them?

Peace
James

One example would be the Hindu practice of pouring milk on the Ganesha with the belief that if the statue drinks the milk it will portend good luck for the year. While it is their belief in Ganesha, the statues are believed by many Hindus to have the power to grant one’s petitions by what we do to or for them. Or the practice of giving offerings of booze to the statue among afro-carribean “religions” which are embodiments of their gods, and have been assigned powers to act on their subjects.

 

[sennincatholic]

Understanding your perspective as devil’s ad…

The distinction is quite simply in to whom the veneration is directed. If one is decorating the statue (or dusting it) for the glory of the statue, that would constitute idolatry. If one does it for the honor and glory of God, via St. Mary, whom is directly represented by the statue, then it is appropriate.

This reminds me of a discussion I’ve had repeatedly with my protestant wife. I maintain that a Catholic would sooner take a baseball bat to a statue of the Virgin Mary, if s/he were pressed to do so, in order to demonstrate that it is not idolotry–than a protestant would take a match to a bible–notwithstanding the fact that bibles–especially protestant bibles–are so common, and even cheap.

Now, let’s pose the same hypo. to our muslim friend:

Would a musliim sooner take a match to a copy of the qu’ran, than a Catholic take a baseball bat to statue of the Virgin Mary, to demonstrate that neither is idolotry?

I’d wager the latter would occur far more readily than the former–if the former could even be admitted to ever happening.

Doubt me? Ok then…let’s step out of hypo-world, and talk reality: does anyone not remember how much blowback came from reports that that copies of the qu’ran was being burned at Gitmo? Or when that idiot from Wesboro Baptist actually filemed and broadcast burnings of copies of the qu’ran?

…meanwhile, in NYC, San Fran, and other metros, there are repeatedly art displays, mocking images of Christ and the Virgin Mary–which garner expressions of protest–but not acts of violence, or even calls for such.

That’s not to say that we don’t take proper offense to such displays, which of course are naturally intended to offend–but it’s not like we actually think that the Christ himeself has been doused in urnine (as one example), by the blasphemous representation of an image being treated so.

We protect and venerate the images for what they represent–no different than the respect we show the flag of the US (when we see someone burning a US flag, do we lament: “…oh no, Wyoming just went up in flames” as a star we presume represents WY, is consumed by flame? of course not…). This is because we do not worship the objects themselves. That would be idolotry.

Showing respect to the images is frankly, a matter of convenience–a devotianal aid that helps focus the mind on the true object of our veneration–the intangible, invisible, reality represented by the tangible, visible image–and further still, the veneration directed to Saints, is for the honor and glory of God–the ultimate object of all our worship and prayer–ours, joined with the subject Saints’–because that is also to whom their honor, glory and worship is directed.

:yup:

 

[steve_b]

(Deuteronomy 5:8-9):
"You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me".

I understand that Christians do not worship the statues inside most Churches, but how to justify the “no bow down” command shown above since I see many persons bow down to the statues and to the pictures inside those Churches!

Re: images of Mary or Joseph for example

Mt 15:4Honor your Father and Mother

τιμάω timaō

1) to estimate, fix the value
a) for the value of something belonging to one’s self
2) to honour, to have in honour, to revere, venerate

Venerate definition

1**:** to regard with reverential respect or with admiring deference
2**:** to honor (as an icon or a relic) with a ritual act of devotion

 

[ajecphotos]

What about St Teresa who instructed the nuns to have a picture of the sacred heart to help pray?

 

[Filii_Dei]

I was challenged with this same thing by the pastor of a very small non-denominational Protestant church (he is an ex Catholic, too, quite odd). My answer: do you have pictures of loved ones? Do you remind yourself of those loved ones when looking at those pictures, possibly even become emotional if they are no longer in the flesh? The statues are representations just as are the pictures. We don’t worship the ‘golden calf’ but the one true God and his Saints are there (in representation) to remind us we are not alone in our earthly struggles. He also questioned my devotion to the Blessed Mother (again, very odd for an ex-Catholic). I explained, Jesus gave her to us all, she is my mother also. Should I not turn to my Mother for help and comfort? Plus (huge plus), didn’t Jesus make wine from water at Cana because she gently nudged him into doing it? So she’s got influence lol. I have a statue of my Mother here and a little “shrine” where small things are placed (robin’s egg, for example). I don’t worship that statue. I don’t worship Mary. I worship her Son. It’s a comfort to me to be able to put little things around “her” but this ain’t no golden calf.

And his response?

 

[fisherman_carl]

What is the object of your focus? If one is focused on something other than God in act of worship then it becomes idolatry. In other words if the subject of one’s worship is something other than God it is idolatry. This is why in the Catholic Church the Sacrifice of the Mass can only be offered to God. Because an offering is always considered an act of worship. I was listening to an Apologist one time, I think Fr. Mitch, who said someone wanted to offer the Mass to Mary. Fr. Mitch refused and he said it would be idolatry since a sacrificial offering is an act of worship and can only be offered to God.

 

[Robyn_p]

This is Jesus talking.

Behold, I will make those of the synagogue of Satan who say they are Jews and are not, but lie - behold, I will make them come and ** BOW DOWN BEFORE YOUR FEET** and learn that I have loved you. (Rev 3:9)

If bowing automatically in each and every circumstance equaled worship, then Jesus would be causing people to sin!! Because he would be having people worship Christians as God. Which he obviously would never do.

No the key with any outward action is intent. A mother could kiss her son on his cheek, and kiss her husband on his cheek as well. Did those two kisses have the exact same weight as each other and mean the exact same thing when she kissed her son as when she kissed her husband? Of course not.

Intent makes all the difference.

 

[rock022]

What I have learned. :compcoff:

1. You shall not make for yourself any image in the likeness of anything:
   —> In Heaven
   —> On Earth
   —> Under the Earth
   (I personally have many pictures and models which violate this, plus I watch TV “moving images”)
2. By God the Son taking flesh we know what He looked like. A Human.
   Before Jesus no one knew what God looked like.

The other points have already been explained. :coffeeread:

I have also asked my self, is bowing to the bible :bible1: a violation of this? :hey_bud:
Words on a page are also pictures.

 

[Filioque]

What I have learned. :compcoff:

1. You shall not make for yourself any image in the likeness of anything:
   —> In Heaven
   —> On Earth
   —> Under the Earth
   (I personally have many pictures and models which violate this, plus I watch TV “moving images”)
2. By God the Son taking flesh we know what He looked like. A Human.
   Before Jesus no one knew what God looked like.

The other points have already been explained. :coffeeread:

I have also asked my self, is bowing to the bible :bible1: a violation of this? :hey_bud:
Words on a page are also pictures.

I think the Protestant interpretation, (which later Protestants used as an excuse to demolish Catholic altars and iconography as the first Lutherans and a few others simply took over the churches and did not modify them) is the typical 1.2.3. and not looking at the whole text in context. Just as they teach the unbiblical, Sola Scriptura, they overlook that there are one one condition, but several to the command. Secondarily they overlook that after this commandment God commands the making of the brazen serpent, and it’s use when one is bitten or stung by a poisionous snake or scorpion. Only later when it is used in a manner not permitted by God and becomes a demi-god itself is it destroyed. Then there are the angels on the arc, and various graven images used in the Temple (at God’s command). They do not qualify as being contrary to the Commandment as they are not worshipped. So too the proper use of graven images in the Catholic and Orthodox Churches do not fall under the prohibition.

 

[zz912]

(Deuteronomy 5:8-9):
"You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me".

I understand that Christians do not worship the statues inside most Churches, but how to justify the “no bow down” command shown above since I see many persons bow down to the statues and to the pictures inside those Churches!

Depends on what is the intent by bowing down. Abraham bowed down to three angels that visited him, and it was not considered sinful, because Abraham was giving them honor, not worshiping them.

Genesis 18:1 The LORD appeared to Abraham by the oak of Mamre, as he sat in the entrance of his tent, while the day was growing hot. 2 Looking up, he saw three men standing near him. When he saw them, he ran from the entrance of the tent to greet them; and bowing to the ground, 3 he said: “Sir, if it please you, do not go on past your servant. 4 Let some water be brought, that you may bathe your feet, and then rest under the tree. 5 Now that you have come to your servant, let me bring you a little food, that you may refresh yourselves; and afterward you may go on your way.” “Very well,” they replied, “do as you have said.”

 

[snarflemike]

Another question to ask is, can one worship some thing while they have the deliberate intention of not worshiping that thing? While they deliberately deny worshiping that thing?

 

[adf417]

Another question to ask is, can one worship some thing while they have the deliberate intention of not worshiping that thing? While they deliberately deny worshiping that thing?

Good point!

 

[JRKH]

Another question to ask is, can one worship some thing while they have the deliberate intention of not worshiping that thing? While they deliberately deny worshiping that thing?

Good point!

Agree - VERY good point.

Peace
James