You'll be happy to know that

[Damascus]

Okay, give me about a half hour I need to clean up a minor flood in the basement from a leaking pipe under the laundry tub…URGGH

Will do. If I’m not on I should be on later to try and answer you. Sorry to hear about the flood. Good luck with the cleanup. In all my comedic glory, which patron saint would most likely respond to your predicament?

Noah would.

Here is a sample.“Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? It is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men. Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hid. Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven” (Mat. 5:13-16).

Lets think about this one, and who can claim it? along with this:

1. Its illogical to thik Jeus left us with something inaccessible to us. He left a Church and its been a light and accessible since he left us. This light has not gone out for any period of time. It is a perpetual light that will shine lest the gates of Hell prevail and Jesus be a blasphemer and a Liar and trickster.
2. The Job of the Church was to carry out the sacraments. Who was feeding the Sheep the Bible or the Church?
3. Who has been using the bible in worship to this very day and always has since it was written?
4. All members of the Church must have belief under penalty of damnation Mark 16:18 and to consider the Christian disobedient to the Church’s commands “a heathen and a publican” Matt 18:17 How can this be done without a recognizable Church to do it?

Must I go on? I will… but not tonight LOL.

 

[Damascus]

So you see there is a “tradition” of men and a “tradition” of God and the latter is what the Catholic Church believes she has.

I understand. At this time though, I can only conclude that she “believes” she has the latter.

Okay, you are trying to keep me busy! Okay. Tradition is a big one. Which ones do you think are unbiblical it would save me some time if you narrowed it down, is it inscense? Candles? Which ones?

 

[leonie]

John Martignoni has a fun debate on Sola Fide available for download.

biblechristiansociety.com/page/Debates

 

[mercygate]

No, it don’t! Look at all the ecclesial bodies that swear by SS but teach different "truths."

Teaching different truths though doesn’t negate SS. Scripture says we see through a glass darkly. Some see one thing, others see something else. That is why the Body needs the Body. My friend, this is the last time I am going to confront this strawman though: Protestants are united in Christ. Various other beliefs about secondary things do not take away from the unity that we have in Christ.

It’s not a strawman. SS, without the consonance of the Apostolic tradition and communion never fails to end up in a squabble over whose Holy Spirit can beat up somebody else’s.

**

Authority. The Roman Catholic Church teaches that the Bible and tradition as interpreted by the Church are the final seat of authority in religion.

. . . based on the Scriptural position that the Church is the pillar and ground of truth (I Tim 3:15)

Good, then the Church will only teach from the Bible from now on? **The Church never teaches anything dogmatically without grounding it in Scripture. Never.

[q/uote]Read what is actually written. Jesus is not condemning tradition per se but tradition that makes “void the commandment of God.” Big difference

Wouldn’t this include any tradition that is not found in Scripture?Not necessarily. Even a human tradition (with a small “t” – i.e., a discipline or practice) can help people to approach God and the truth. For example, if I set up a tradition in my home that as a family we will read Scripture together for 30 minutes every night, that will not be a commandment found explicitly in the Bible, and it would be a “tradition of men” but it would not “make void the word of God.”

**

Nothing in Catholic doctrine “adds” to the divine word, though that is an accusation we frequently hear. Catholic teaching may clarify the divine word but never adds to it or “voids” it. Actually, this verse from Deuteronomy is one that Jews cite when arguing that Jesus cannot possibly be the Messiah. In order to approach the “bigness” of Catholic theology, you have to embrace Scripture in its entirety. Verse clipping just can’t measure up to the fullness and the majesty of the totality of the Divine Word.

I don’t know, wasn’t it in the 1800s that the doctrines on Mary were finally “confirmed”? Yes, you have to embrace the entirety of Scripture. I do this. **Ah ha. You think that the dogmatic proclamations of the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary have no basis in Scripture. Heck. Even when I was still Protestant, I couldl defend those teachings from Scripture – and frequently did to dissenting Catholics.

As for verse clipping, if only we could get the small amount of Catholics on this site that do that to stop doing that. I’ve had to correct two different people who used 1Corinthians 3:10-12 to “teach” that we can lose our salvation. If only they’d go on to read the next verse to see the passage is not teaching that at all. God bless.

Good for you. Iron sharpens iron. If those verses have been used incorrectly to challenge eternal security, that’s unfortunate becausae there are no fewer than 125 other verses in Scripture that deny eternal security. 'Nother thread.

 

[The_Catholic]

“I don’t know, wasn’t it in the 1800s that the doctrines on Mary were finally “confirmed”? Yes, you have to embrace the entirety of Scripture. I do this.”

In 1854 the Immaculate Conception became an offical teaching by Pope Pius IX, and in 1950 the Assumption of Mary was pronounced infallible as well by Pope Pius XII.But these beliefs emerged among the early christians and was almost unanimously accepted among christians by the thirteenth century. Doctrines are defined fromally and infallible when there is a controversy that needs to be cleared up or when the magisterium thinks the faithful can be helped by particular emphasis being drawn to some already-existing belief.

Likewise, the deity of Christ and the Holy Trinity, although an ancient belief, tradition, was not spoken of as infallible or formal until the fourth century when it came under heavy attack by Arianism.

The entire New Testament (except Revelations) is a sacred tradition that was passed down orally and by letter for quite some until there was a Bible. There was no Bible until 397 A.D. at the council of Carthage. Before that there were so many letters being read within churches on the Lord’s Day that were thought to be inspired ( over 50 gospels written besides the four we have, The Apocalypse of Peter, The Acts of Paul, etc.). But none of these are in the Bible today, or have ever been since we have had a Bible. And all of this was decided by the Catholic Church.

Solo Scriptua is just as harmful as HUMAN tradition because you can interpret the Bible anyway you like. And among Protestants, there are many that are severely seperated on more than just “secondary issues” when it comes to Baptism by emmersion, Saturday worship, the Real Presence and especialy free will vs. election! Etc. I know, I was there, and was once one of them. A Calvinist.

If that’s what you believe though then fine, so be it. I wish you many blessings in Christ. But as for me, as well as the early Church, I see no evidence at all that the Bible is the sole rule of Faith and that no other Truth of God can come from anywhere else. No way, not at all!

 

[Damascus]

Who had a mission from God?
Only persons with legitimate mission need apply. Why? Jesus gave his apostles a mission, in turn they sent others to continue. This continues to this day.
Reformers had no mission from God. They made up their own mission that God had no part in. They appointed themselves to do a task outside of the body of believers, therefore they are exposed in :
Romans 10:15
“How shall they preach unless they be sent”?

Indeed. How?

Consider John 10:1- **“He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up another way, the same as a thief and a robber” **Those are strong words no? Thief and robber?!!

Lets ponder John 20: 21-
“As the Father sent me, I also send you” John 13:20 – “He that recieveth whomever I send, receiveth me”

Who sent the Reformers?

 

[The_Catholic]

Who had a mission from God?
Only persons with legitimate mission need apply. Why? Jesus gave his apostles a mission, in turn they sent others to continue. This continues to this day.
Reformers had no mission from God. They made up their own mission that God had no part in. They appointed themselves to do a task outside of the body of believers, therefore they are exposed in :
Romans 10:15
“How shall they preach unless they be sent”?

Indeed. How?

Consider John 10:1- **“He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up another way, the same as a thief and a robber” **Those are strong words no? Thief and robber?!!

Lets ponder John 20: 21-
“As the Father sent me, I also send you” John 13:20 – “He that recieveth whomever I send, receiveth me”

Who sent the Reformers?

I wouldn’t say the reformers were sent by God but I do not think they are “robbers.” Especialy the ones who live a God-fearing and moral life because they love God.

 

[Damascus]

Sola Fide objections by 'D"

1. No where is it in the bible faith ALONE justifies.
   2)not heard of or thought of until the 16th century
2. Matt 25:34-36 knocks it down
3. Matt 19:16-21 knocks it down
   5)Matt 16:27 knocks it down
4. corinthians 3:8 knocks it down
   7)1 Corinthians 13:12 knocks it down
5. james 2:24 knocks it down
6. james 2:14 knocks it out of the park
7. James 2:17- pretty clear!
   11)james 2:18 nuff said
8. James 2:20-1, James 2:26,
9. 2 Peter 1:10

In summary- its not biblical, in fact its the farthest from it.
We do agree works done to please MAN is no help to us.
Works done to please God however, are not just an extra credit point or brownie point for us but mandatory as Christians, lest we ignore all this Scripture and become blind to it.

 

[Damascus]

I wouldn’t say the reformers were sent by God but I do not think they are “robbers.” Especialy the ones who live a God-fearing and moral life because they love God.

Its in the Bible. I did not write it.

 

[The_Catholic]

Its in the Bible. I did not write it.

lol, now you sound like a solo scriptua

What I’m saying is that i do not believe honest God-fearing ignorant Protestants are dammed. That’s in the Bible too.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

I found out I was wrong. I read CLOSELY the second chapter of James.

It DOES talk about justification being by faith AND works. I was angry when I read it though.

In James 2:14-24 Clearly, James did not argue for good deeds as a requirement for salvation through Jesus. Instead, he insisted that there are 2 kinds of faith- one legitimate the other illegitimate---------faith… made complete ( verse 22) and faith without deeds (verse20). Both kinds “believe” in one sense of the word. But legitimate faith goes deeper than “right thinking” to embody “right living.”

 

[The_Catholic]

In James 2:14-24 Clearly, James did not argue for good deeds as a requirement for salvation through Jesus. Instead, he insisted that there are 2 kinds of faith- one legitimate the other illegitimate---------faith… made complete ( verse 22) and faith without deeds (verse20). Both kinds “believe” in one sense of the word. But legitimate faith goes deeper than “right thinking” to embody “right living.”

Exactly! We have to live our Faith. Head knowledge means nothing.

 

[Damascus]

lol, now you sound like a solo scriptua

Yes, and that was not an accident.

What I’m saying is that i do not believe honest God-fearing ignorant Protestants are dammed. That’s in the Bible too.

The verse does not say they are damned. It says they are coming in through another way. And its not the best way, but its a way.
That verse is totally in line with Catholic teaching on the salvation for Protestants. BTW- if we were interpreting it ourselves, who knows how we would see it…
See my point?
I dont think they are damned either. You see, the Church does say they are not damned but that they will come in through the Church and Christ, like it or not, that is how it will happen. There is no salvation outside of the Church and even non Catholics will be saved in some mysterious way through Christ and His Church. even by the backdoor.
That was all I was saying. Dont be a backdoor man, come in through the front door.

 

[Damascus]

In James 2:14-24 Clearly, James did not argue for good deeds as a requirement for salvation through Jesus. Instead, he insisted that there are 2 kinds of faith- one legitimate the other illegitimate---------faith… made complete ( verse 22) and faith without deeds (verse20). Both kinds “believe” in one sense of the word. But legitimate faith goes deeper than “right thinking” to embody “right living.”

That’s great but how about all the other verses I cited outside of that?

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Sola Fide objections by 'D"

1. Matt 25:34-36 knocks it down

.

This does no such thing. It reaffirms predestination.
Also see acts 20:32 Gods grace is what builds you up and gives you inheritance.

 

[Alexius]

In James 2:14-24 Clearly, James did not argue for good deeds as a requirement for salvation through Jesus. Instead, he insisted that there are 2 kinds of faith- one legitimate the other illegitimate---------faith… made complete ( verse 22) and faith without deeds (verse20). Both kinds “believe” in one sense of the word. But legitimate faith goes deeper than “right thinking” to embody “right living.”

It sounds like you are (most likely unintentionally) contradicting yourself…At first, you say that works are not required for salvation, but then you seem to imply later that faith without deeds is dead…Wouldn’t that mean works are necessary? I don’t think that what your saying, but I don’t want to misinterpret you…

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius

 

[Bishopite]

[hoosierdaddy;1781830]I found out I was wrong. I read CLOSELY the second chapter of James.

It DOES talk about justification being by faith AND works. I was angry when I read it though. I had never seen that before.

One note on the word “works.” Being a former Baptist I want you to know that when Catholicism uses the word works along side faith it ISN’T speaking of personal works like the works that are done without the grace that God gives us to do them.

Our personal works can’t get us to heaven, we both agree with that and we both agree that God gives us the grace in order to have the faith and do the works He calls us to do. The works that are coupled with faith are the works that are done under grace as Galations 5:6 says…faith working through love.
And those works are also like the works of Matthew 25 where the righteous are doing works under the grace of God.

Eph 2:8-9 mentions our personal works that can’t save us, but verse 10 says God created us for good works, meaning if our works are His works through us again as Matthew 25 mentions, then we are doing Gods works through us.

I am far from Catholic but I wanted to let some of you know that I am not an idiot and I know how to search the Scriptures. I also wanted to let you know that even though I am not even close to being a Catholic, some of you have been a positive influence on me.

Take your time and don’t rush it. I studied for five years before converting. Some Catholics can be harsh and proud (I know I’m the chief among them) but what we are all searching for is truth and if you ask God to show that truth He will in His time.

 

[Damascus]

This does no such thing. It reaffirms predestination.
Also see acts 20:32 Gods grace is what builds you up and gives you inheritance.

Matt 25:34-36 is a litany of works to do!!!

Gotta run.

 

[Eireann]

**
Good, then the Church will only teach from the Bible from now on?

**

Which came first, the Bible or the Church ? no it’s not a chicken and egg question.

Or to rephrase, did the Church come out of the Bible, or did the Bible come out of the Church ?
myfavoritmartin;1784920:

In James 2:14-24 Clearly, James did not argue for good deeds as a requirement for salvation through Jesus. Instead, he insisted that there are 2 kinds of faith- one legitimate the other illegitimate---------faith… made complete ( verse 22) and faith without deeds (verse20). Both kinds “believe” in one sense of the word. But legitimate faith goes deeper than “right thinking” to embody “right living.”

As someone else higlighted, you do contradict yourself.

So works aren’t necessary ?

Why are the people below going to be condemned, isn’t their faith in Jesus enough ?

Matt 25:41 **Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink. 43 I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you covered me not: sick and in prison, and you did not visit me. 44 Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee? 45 Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me. **

myfavouritemartin
**
Faith without works, is lip service.**

 

[Zooey]

If I may offer you something on Sola Fide, some Evangelicals have defined it to include repentance (turning away) from one’s sins–which the Catholic Church would consider a work, impelled by grace but still a work–, surrender to the Lordship of Jesus Christ, and a complete submission to His commandments–which again the Catholic Church would consider works. As such, the “Sola Fide” condemned at the Council of Trent bears no practical resemblance to the beliefs of these modern Evangelicals. In fact, there is little if any difference between this Evangelical belief and the teachings of the Catholic Church on this subject.

• Liberian

Exactly! We have to live our Faith. Head knowledge means nothing.

[SIGN]And again: [/SIGN]