You'll be happy to know that

[Church_Militant]

I’m afraid that you see this attitude among Catholics on these boards–that the Church can do no wrong-- even when the subject under discussion lies outside of the definition of doctrine, faith or morals.

If the church can fail in the teaching of truth then Christ’s promise is a lie and the gates of hell have prevailed, however this is not true.

The doctrinal correctness of the Catholic Church is not tied to the peccability of any member of it. Truth remains true, whether one lives up to it or not.

Doctrine, faith and morals are the very areas in which the church cannot (and has not) err(ed).
Pax tecum,

 

[Damascus]

Hooiserdaddy,

I have a question for you, as I dont think I can sort through all the responses so far, really quick one,

Do Miracles still happen? Like they did for Moses so that people would believe? Some Protestants say that miracles have ceased from the Church.

What do you think about the incorrupt Saints? Stigmata? The Eucharistic Miracle?

“If you be the children of Abraham, do the works of Abraham.” John 8:39

The miracles in the Catholic Chruch have always been a sign to the believers as the bible promises, and the reason the same kind of miracles do not exist outside of the Catholic Church is plain and simple out of the Bible----

Matt 13:58

“and he wrought not many miracles there, because of their unbelief”

Ponder this please.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

Hey guys, you have given me much to comment on. Please be patient and I will address it all ok?

I do want to comment now though on 1John 2:18-20. It is talking about those who leave the Church (the Christian church) prove that they are not a part of the Church nor were they ever a part of the Church. It has nothing to do with the Catholic Church though, or you would be forced to say that I am not a Christian. You aren’t going to do that are you?

In fact, it reinforces eternal security. True believers will never leave, because Christ promises to keep them. Praise God!

 

[rr1213]

The doctrinal correctness of the Catholic Church is not tied to the peccability of any member of it. Truth remains true, whether one lives up to it or not.

Doctrine, faith and morals are the very areas in which the church cannot (and has not) err(ed).
Pax tecum,

As a Protestant it will not surprise you that I disagree with that position. Nonetheless, my point is even in cases where, strictly speaking, we are not talking about doctrine, you will see an attitude from Catholics here to defend the Church under almost all circumstances. My Church, right or wrong, but my Church…

 

[hoosierdaddy]

Ponder this please. (regarding miracles)

Will do. But you may not like the answer.

I believe in miracles but they don’t tend to be the flashy things such as stigmata or something. I don’t see stigmata in Scripture so I have to reject it.

You have to remember though that the devil is an angel of light and can perform “miracles” as well in order to lead people astray. The focus on miracles and Tradition at the expense of plain written Scripture raises a hair or two on the back of my neck.

 

[scylla]

We have cleared up a bit so I won’t comment on the stuff about Miracles, and I will bow out as you probably have enough to respond to, plus I need to get to work.

Thanks for the conversation, we can talk about good works later if you want, as we are pretty close in agreement but maybe need to discuss it a bit more.

God Bless and enjoy the discussions Hoosier,
Scylla

 

[hoosierdaddy]

18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that Antichrist cometh, even now there are become many Antichrists: whereby we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us. For if they had been of us, they would no doubt have remained with us; but that they may be manifest, that they are not all of us. (1st John 2)

Gotta go but I forgot to add this comment. Note that this passage is talking about anti-christs. Not anti-catholics. I may not be a Catholic but I am definitely not anti-christ. This passage in no way describes me.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

We have cleared up a bit so I won’t comment on the stuff about Miracles, and I will bow out as you probably have enough to respond to, plus I need to get to work.

Thanks for the conversation, we can talk about good works later if you want, as we are pretty close in agreement but maybe need to discuss it a bit more.

God Bless and enjoy the discussions Hoosier,
Scylla

Fair enough. I gotta fly too. talk to you later. God bless you too.

 

[Church_Militant]

Hey guys, you have given me much to comment on. Please be patient and I will address it all ok?

I do want to comment now though on 1John 2:18-20. It is talking about those who leave the Church (the Christian church) prove that they are not a part of the Church nor were they ever a part of the Church. It has nothing to do with the Catholic Church though, or you would be forced to say that I am not a Christian. You aren’t going to do that are you?

In fact, it reinforces eternal security. True believers will never leave, because Christ promises to keep them. Praise God!

Twisted interpretation beyond all belief…

The only thing that makes you a Christian in our eyes is your expressed faith in Christ and your valid trinitarian baptism…aside from that (and if you actually read Catholic teaching you’d already know this) you are not considered responsible for the sins of the “reformers”, and the fact that you are here now in dialog with knowledgeable Catholics is testimony to the Holy Spirit seeking you out to come to the knowledge of the fullness of truth. You have no idea how many of us are praying for you and begging the Holy Spirit to open your eyes and heart to the truth.
Pax tecum,

 

[Church_Militant]

18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that Antichrist cometh, even now there are become many Antichrists: whereby we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us. For if they had been of us, they would no doubt have remained with us; but that they may be manifest, that they are not all of us. (1st John 2)

Gotta go but I forgot to add this comment. Note that this passage is talking about anti-christs. Not anti-catholics. I may not be a Catholic but I am definitely not anti-christ. This passage in no way describes me.Never said it did… my point was applied to the “reformers”
Pax tecum,

 

[Church_Militant]

As a Protestant it will not surprise you that I disagree with that position. Nonetheless, my point is even in cases where, strictly speaking, we are not talking about doctrine, you will see an attitude from Catholics here to defend the Church under almost all circumstances. My Church, right or wrong, but my Church…

Two words…Damn straight!

The point is that if the doctrines are correct then I follow the truth regardless of where it leads me. If some fall to my right or left, then that does not make the truth less true.

Your acceptance or rejection of that truth also does not invalidate that truth. Absolute truth remains absolute.
Pax tecum,

 

[MariaG]

Just another Catholic christian who is enjoying the discussions.

I think Brian has been more than gracious, and I will not add to his plate with any real questions or commentary.

But I will say I about fell out of my chair laughing at the “quote moron” comment. Been there before

May God bless you Brian. May the Holy Spirit always lead and guide you and may you always be attentive and bow to His will for your life. I ask this through Christ our Lord. Amen.

Maria

 

[mikeledes]

I’m sorry Mike. I hope you see now that I’m not inconsistent. At least, I don’t think I am.

I believe the teaching authority was established to teach God’s Word. Anything He wanted us to learn, He took the time to have written down in the few thousand years of Scripture. Exactly, the Catholic Church came into heresy, hence the need for the Reformation. If us Protestants are not members of Christ’s Church who He says He added us into and promises to keep us, then He lied.

LOL I don’t understand the point of the vaccine either. I do believe though that God gave Scripture to protect us and the teachers have to teach from it faithfully. That is a solemn and serious responsibility so they should be teaching what is established and absolute truth and that is the thing that we both agree on; Scripture. We just disagree on the added Tradition.

Will God ensure that the teachers in His Church will not teach heresy? The Bible says that the devil is angel of light. The devil is apparently going to do whatever he can to harm the Church. God even says that there will be false teachers in His Church that lead others astray. This can’t be Protestants because we are not in the Catholic Church and certainly don’t hold teaching positions in the Catholic Church. It has to be false teachers within the Catholic Church, teaching false doctrines from Tradition instead of sticking to the pure Word of God which alone is able to lead one to the salvation of their souls, to the Saviour, Jesus Christ.

The vaccine is desgned to protect us from a certain disease. The tecahing authority was designed to protect us from the disease of false doctrine and heresy. As you know, the Bible alone is used to support all forms of heresy (i.e. Jehovah’s Witnesses). The teaching authority safeguard’s the correct interpretation of the Bible and interprets it in light of that Tradition whihc it received from the Apostles.

God Bless,
michael

 

[mercygate]

More and more I am convinced of this fact. I think that while there are real differences in theology between the Protestant and Catholic positions on faith and works, from a practical standpoint perhaps the words are getting in the way. We agree that we are saved solely through the grace of God, not by anything we can do. We also agree that a Christian who is pleasing to God will have in his life (1) faith and (2) works. We can argue over what causes what and which is the result of the other, but does it really matter?

It would be (is) entirely possible for a Catholic to argue sola fide, if by “fide” you mean “faith working through love” as Paul notes in Galatians 5.

The kind of “*sola” *the Catholic Church rejects is the kind that says all I need to do is “confess with my lips” and the rest is a done deal.

 

[MariaG]

It would be (is) entirely possible for a Catholic to argue sola fide, if by “fide” you mean “faith working through love” as Paul notes in Galatians 5.

The kind of “*sola” *the Catholic Church rejects is the kind that says all I need to do is “confess with my lips” and the rest is a done deal.

Yes, and it was this “confess with my lips” an intellectual assent only, was what the Catholic Church decried as heretical.

One has to wonder if it isn’t the Protestant Church that has wandered from it’s doctrines since Luther, as a Catholic surely understood that “faith alone” as defined by the Catholic Church would be intellectual assent only. Or did Luther NOT understand the teachings of the Catholic Church?

My question is did Luther misunderstand or have Protestants wandered from the original teaching of “faith alone”?

 

[MrS]

I do want to comment now though on 1John 2:18-20. It is talking about those who leave the Church (the Christian church) prove that they are not a part of the Church nor were they ever a part of the Church. It has nothing to do with the Catholic Church though, or you would be forced to say that I am not a Christian. You aren’t going to do that are you?

In fact, it reinforces eternal security. True believers will never leave, because Christ promises to keep them. Praise God!

You will now have to reconcile what Paul said as he asked for the prayers of the early believers that they pray for him that he not fail.

If Paul was aware that justification was real, was ongoing, and was "lose"able… we should have deep concern too that we continue to work out our salvation in fear and trembling.

and…

would you agree that a “true” believer is one who believes in everything that Christ taught and spoke, and shared, and sworn as true??

if yes, then you now must reconcile that most difficult John 6 with Paul’s admonishment of the literal meaning of the gift of the Eucharist (given only by way of that pesky ministerial priesthood you don’t see in the NT)

if you cannot accept the Real Presence, (what Jesus said, not what Lutherans etc might avow today)… if you cannot accept John 6 then one of four things is happening:

1- The Lord has not chosen this time to open your eyes
2- the non-authoritative leaders you might listen too are teaching you error (on purpose or not)
3- you have succumbed to a fatal self-interpretation of scripture
4- you are not putting your faith to work, by asking God for more faith.

Sola Fide … not true, not scriptural, not workable
Sola Scriptura… not true, not scriptural, not workable
O’ sola meo … true outside the Church, not scriptural,fatal

Sola Dei Verbum… Only the Word of God…

The only sola that will work… and the only Fullness of this Truth can be found in the Catholic Church and the three witnesses to the Truth… Tradition, Scripture, Magisterium
.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

Just another Catholic christian who is enjoying the discussions.

I think Brian has been more than gracious, and I will not add to his plate with any real questions or commentary.

But I will say I about fell out of my chair laughing at the “quote moron” comment. Been there before

May God bless you Brian. May the Holy Spirit always lead and guide you and may you always be attentive and bow to His will for your life. I ask this through Christ our Lord. Amen.

Maria

LOL you liked that eh? I don’t think I’ll ever get on the quote boat. Anyways, thank you. And thank you for your prayer too.

Also, you were spot on about the whole faith issue. When a Protestant talks about faith he/she is absolutely, most definitely not talking about only an intellectual assent. A faith that is nothing more than intellectual assent would mean the person is actually a fool (for not acting on it) and is no better than a person believing they are an ice cream cone that Randy and I are going to have one day when we have finnished debating everything.

 

[Eireann]

But we won’t go to hell for it. Because we are saved by faith alone. We receive rewards and loss at the judgement but we do not go to hell. Praise God!

Don’t agree with you here.

Matt 25:41 Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink. 43 I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you covered me not: sick and in prison, and you did not visit me. 44 Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee? 45 Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me.

It amazes me how you got from your first post to this long discussion, makes me question your sincerity.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

Mercygate>>It would be (is) entirely possible for a Catholic to argue sola fide, if by “fide” you mean “faith working through love” as Paul notes in Galatians 5.

The kind of “sola” the Catholic Church rejects is the kind that says all I need to do is “confess with my lips” and the rest is a done deal.

Even Protestants reject this. A simple confession with one’s lips is not enough. One must accompany that confession with believing in their heart.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

Don’t agree with you here.

Matt 25:41 Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: **Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire **which was prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink. 43 I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you covered me not: sick and in prison, and you did not visit me. 44 Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee? 45 Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me.

These weren’t believers. 1Corinthians teaches about the Judgement seat of Christ (the judgement of believers). To say this is believers is a gross misinterpretation of Scripture that contradicts the entire gospel message and the truths of Jesus Christ as presented by the Apostles. If that is talking about believers, it even makes Jesus a liar. He said that He will never cast us out. He said He gives us ETERNAL LIFE. No, the passage you gave simply is not talking about believers. This would be those people who were never saved but liked to go to Church for selfish motives. They wanted Church, but not Christ.