R
ReaderT
Guest
It sure as heck beats liturgy on a rickety wooden table by a priest in jeans. Somehow, given the choice between beauty and bland, people have been choosing bland & uninspiring churches.
- Status
P
PetraG
Guest
I’ve always felt that the “informal” Masses were an attempt at making worship “less distant” and “less formulaic.” This was also at a time when people came to see formality as a way of enforcing personal distance, not as a way to show mutual respect. Perhaps there is a hunger for a personal relationship with God that cannot come just from attending Mass, but people imagine it is the details of the ritual that are to blame for that? I agree that removing beauty and care from the ritual of the Mass does not accomplish that. The result is less formal and less beautiful, but not automatically more intimate. If anything, taking reverence out is counter-productive when you are trying to build a relationship with Someone infinitely deserving of glory and reverence.
Last edited:
R
ReaderT
Guest
That could definitely be their intention, and you’re right that formality can often distance people. I just hope they don’t throw out beauty in the mix, because God explicitly calls for that: from Exodus to Revelation worship is clothed in gold, silver, precious stones, embroidery, robes of gorgeous fabric, bells and candles. God ordered beauty, even extravagant beauty, in worship even while his people were still wandering the desert in tents
Last edited:
P
PetraG
Guest
The formality didn’t need to be removed, but rather understood as in keeping with an intimate relationship that by its nature includes a sense of awe and wonder.That could definitely be their intention, and you’re right that formality can often distance people. At the same time, God explicitly calls for beauty: from Exodus to Revelation worship is clothed in gold, silver, precious stones, embroidery, robes of gorgeous fabric, bells and candles. God ordered beauty, even extravagant beauty, in worship even while his people were still wandering the desert in tents
B
Bushum
Guest
Will you please put out where anyone said or even implied this? Using straw men is not a good way to convince people.
That’s a nice anecdote. When I converted I had TWO elderly people tell me that Vatican 2 was the worst thing to ever happen to the Catholic Church.
Maybe try and then you won’t be reliant on the opinions and speculation of others.
O
otjm
Guest
No one I know wanted anything “destroyed”, and the OF did not destroy the Mass. It removed bits and pieces which had been added on over centuries and put back some things which had been removed (e.g. OT readings). I spoke with a woman who was born in 1917, so had attended Mass for some odd 50 years before the OF was promulgated. I asked her an indirect question of what she thought about Vatican 2. Her immediate response was “Oh! The Mass in English!”
She was in her late 80’s when I asked; and she attended mass not just weekly, but daily. And she is typical of others I have known. I have yet to meet anyone - not one single person - who has ever said they hated the EF.
But they love the Mass in English.
And nothing has been ROBBED of anyone. The EF is celebrated in a bit less than 3% of all the parishes in the US - and there are a bit over 17,000 parishes. Summorum Pontificum has the regulations as to what is needed to supply more EF Masses, and the EF has essentially reached stasis, because there are so few of any age who are willing to support it.
A parish near me has 11 Masses on a weekend; one of them is the EF, at 6:45 a.m. on Sunday. Why so early? Because the attendance is so low and the attendance so much higher for the OF Masses that it is not at a later hour.
Within the community there are three other Catholic parishes; the farthest away is 4.5 miles; the nearest 1.7; and there are a total of 12 other Masses on the weekend.
So out of 23 Masses in the local area, the parish draws in a bit less than 100 on average. So no one is robbed of their heritage. Your anger over the OF is apparent in your comment about the EF being destroyed. I would say that statement is poppycock, but that is inadequate; “destroyed” is an outright lie. There was no drastic revisions with one exception: the Mass, as it was originally, is celebrated in the local language.
And if you want my honest belief I will give it to you: do you honestly believe that someone would actually abandon the Eucharist over language and minor modifications? Really? Their anger was so vehement that they would abandon the Eucharist, the source and summit of our faith?
Really?
She was in her late 80’s when I asked; and she attended mass not just weekly, but daily. And she is typical of others I have known. I have yet to meet anyone - not one single person - who has ever said they hated the EF.
But they love the Mass in English.
And nothing has been ROBBED of anyone. The EF is celebrated in a bit less than 3% of all the parishes in the US - and there are a bit over 17,000 parishes. Summorum Pontificum has the regulations as to what is needed to supply more EF Masses, and the EF has essentially reached stasis, because there are so few of any age who are willing to support it.
A parish near me has 11 Masses on a weekend; one of them is the EF, at 6:45 a.m. on Sunday. Why so early? Because the attendance is so low and the attendance so much higher for the OF Masses that it is not at a later hour.
Within the community there are three other Catholic parishes; the farthest away is 4.5 miles; the nearest 1.7; and there are a total of 12 other Masses on the weekend.
So out of 23 Masses in the local area, the parish draws in a bit less than 100 on average. So no one is robbed of their heritage. Your anger over the OF is apparent in your comment about the EF being destroyed. I would say that statement is poppycock, but that is inadequate; “destroyed” is an outright lie. There was no drastic revisions with one exception: the Mass, as it was originally, is celebrated in the local language.
And if you want my honest belief I will give it to you: do you honestly believe that someone would actually abandon the Eucharist over language and minor modifications? Really? Their anger was so vehement that they would abandon the Eucharist, the source and summit of our faith?
Really?
P
Peeps
Guest
Give the children a job in the church, a service project, a task–something that they do weekly.
When people are actually part of the Church, doing a vital job, they will be more likely to stay.
I started playing piano in church when I was very young (Protestant), and I have played in church most of my life.
I also started working as a “teen helper” in Vacation Bible School when I was 13, and never missed a year of VBS until I turned 43 years old and we left our Protestant church forever (due to a horrific and nightmarish situation that developed that left us vowing to never return to any church. Thankfully God guided us into the Catholic Church, HIS Church!).
I know old women who, as teenagers, started teaching Sunday School to little toddlers, and 60 years later, they are still teaching Sunday school! I know old men who started working as an usher when they were teenagers, and 60 years later, they’re still ushing!
I’m very very serious about this. Find something for your children to DO in Church! I would suggest that the children volunteer to change the numbers of the hymns on the signs that many churches have at the front of the nave. Or perhaps the children could help straighten the hymnals after Mass, or even pass out bulletins to the parishioners as they leave. Even very young children can help fix a weekly treat for the priests(s) and deliver it themselves–it could be something as simple as a shiny apple with a cute little picture!
One church that we attended had a “substitute grandparents” ministry. Children with no grandparents were paired up with older people who didn’t have grandchildren around. or who did have grandchildren, but loved children and were willing to fill in as a “substitute Grandparent!” My daughter LOVED her substitute grandparents, and they loved her! I remember “grandma” telling me that even her husband loved my daughter because she like to talk with him, and most children her age couldn’t talk well enough to converse with an old man!
Seriously , little children can make a huge positive difference to an older person.
In one church, we had a “mixed age” choir with older folks, middle-aged folks, young folks, and CHILDREN, including babies, and we went around to nursing homes singing songs and telling stories about the appropriate holidays, various church heroes, Bible verses, prayers, etc. So much fun, and my children loved it. Eventually the woman that organized it died of a stroke at a young age (62), and to this day, both of my children still remember her fondly. My daughters were just toddlers when they were part of this choir.
When children grow up SERVING in their church, they stick around because they are a part of the “family” of the church. And these little acts of service prepare them to take on more responsibility in the church as they get older (e.g., Religious Ed. Instructor, or Head of Altar and Rosary society, etc.)
Try it!
When people are actually part of the Church, doing a vital job, they will be more likely to stay.
I started playing piano in church when I was very young (Protestant), and I have played in church most of my life.
I also started working as a “teen helper” in Vacation Bible School when I was 13, and never missed a year of VBS until I turned 43 years old and we left our Protestant church forever (due to a horrific and nightmarish situation that developed that left us vowing to never return to any church. Thankfully God guided us into the Catholic Church, HIS Church!).
I know old women who, as teenagers, started teaching Sunday School to little toddlers, and 60 years later, they are still teaching Sunday school! I know old men who started working as an usher when they were teenagers, and 60 years later, they’re still ushing!
I’m very very serious about this. Find something for your children to DO in Church! I would suggest that the children volunteer to change the numbers of the hymns on the signs that many churches have at the front of the nave. Or perhaps the children could help straighten the hymnals after Mass, or even pass out bulletins to the parishioners as they leave. Even very young children can help fix a weekly treat for the priests(s) and deliver it themselves–it could be something as simple as a shiny apple with a cute little picture!
One church that we attended had a “substitute grandparents” ministry. Children with no grandparents were paired up with older people who didn’t have grandchildren around. or who did have grandchildren, but loved children and were willing to fill in as a “substitute Grandparent!” My daughter LOVED her substitute grandparents, and they loved her! I remember “grandma” telling me that even her husband loved my daughter because she like to talk with him, and most children her age couldn’t talk well enough to converse with an old man!
Seriously , little children can make a huge positive difference to an older person.
In one church, we had a “mixed age” choir with older folks, middle-aged folks, young folks, and CHILDREN, including babies, and we went around to nursing homes singing songs and telling stories about the appropriate holidays, various church heroes, Bible verses, prayers, etc. So much fun, and my children loved it. Eventually the woman that organized it died of a stroke at a young age (62), and to this day, both of my children still remember her fondly. My daughters were just toddlers when they were part of this choir.
When children grow up SERVING in their church, they stick around because they are a part of the “family” of the church. And these little acts of service prepare them to take on more responsibility in the church as they get older (e.g., Religious Ed. Instructor, or Head of Altar and Rosary society, etc.)
Try it!
Last edited:
P
Peeps
Guest
I will say, though, that when a church “betrays” someone, it is very very difficult for the “victim” to ever, ever EVER return to that church or ANY church.
I have one grown daughter who wants to go back to church, but after what happened to us in our Protestant church, she is scared and mistrustful. She willingly goes with me or my husband, but doesn’t go on her own.
So guard your children and don’t let them be betrayed by anyone or any circumstance in your church.
I have one grown daughter who wants to go back to church, but after what happened to us in our Protestant church, she is scared and mistrustful. She willingly goes with me or my husband, but doesn’t go on her own.
So guard your children and don’t let them be betrayed by anyone or any circumstance in your church.
E
ewohdrol
Guest
True.
And also conveniently forgetting the young people that also have left the traditional service.
It is not unique to NO.
And also conveniently forgetting the young people that also have left the traditional service.
It is not unique to NO.
R
ReaderT
Guest
True, but many young people want unchanging eternal truth also, and genuine beauty. Our Orthodox parish is 90% below 40 years old (including the priest).
EDIT: And we’re all converts to the Orthodox faith (again, including the priest).
Last edited:
G
GodIsPerfection
Guest
The decline of the West, including declining Catholicism, owes much to the erosion of respect for AUTHORITY in home, in government, and in the Church. Respect for legitimate hierarchy is being popularly supplanted by the false notions “One person is the same as another in every respect” and “Whatever I think is just as good as what anyone else thinks.”
PAUSE TO CONSIDER THE FALLACY OF THIS THINKING: Is a small child learning to play violin ALREADY a proven Beethoven, or a Bach, or a Handel? Of course not! Should a three year old, who does not understand the danger of fire, have an equal right to a box of matches? Of course not! If I, alone, say the sky is red, is my thought equally valid compared with highly trained meteorologists who agree the sky is blue? Of course not!
Spiritually, are my perceptions equal to the prophets, Daniel, or Samuel, or to Jesus Christ, or his Apostles? Of course not! Am I as schooled in Catholic spirituality or theology as an ordained Priest?
Of course not!
The antidote to modern, toxic, thinking is to embrace the virtue of AUTHORITARIAN SUBMISSION. I can surrender my spiritual understanding entirely to my LORD, Jesus Christ, and to the teachings of the Catholic Church. A spirit of AUTHORITARIAN SUBMISSION is critical to conceiving of a KINGDOM of Heaven, or of an omnipotent GOD, or of the LORD, Jesus Christ. This is not “narrow-mindedness.” It is a constructive spirit that builds personal well-being and strength.
The Latin Mass has the virtue of emphasizing the authority of the Priest as CELEBRANT on behalf of the congregation. As an Army Officer might lead his Company in battle, The Priest LEADS the congregation in the celebration of the Eucharist. As the CELEBRANT, the Priest faces the altar, celebrating the Eucharist ON BEHALF OF the congregation. Prayers are offered by the Priest in Latin, and some prayers are even silent. The concern is not with congregational participation directly in the Mass or even that the congregation understand all that is being prayed on their behalf. The congregation TRUSTS that their Priest is using his ecclesial power and authority for their benefit. The Latin Mass better embodies the virtue of authoritarian submission.
The modern, vernacular, Mass developed out of the various Western cultural forces that denigrate and disperse authority. The Church responded to these popular forces with a more “inclusive,” “democratic” liturgy, that deemphasizes ecclesial authority, and to a lesser degree (probably unintentionally) all authority.
Attendees at Latin Masses appear much more conservative in dress and manners compared with the Vernacular Mass. Veils are prominent among women, as are larger families, often with infants. I suspect that more families adhere to Church guidelines on birth control. Family units appear much stronger, with fathers exhibiting appropriate leadership roles.
Hope remains! It has been said that “The last frontier of progressivism is Orthodoxy.” All will come full-circle eventually.
PAUSE TO CONSIDER THE FALLACY OF THIS THINKING: Is a small child learning to play violin ALREADY a proven Beethoven, or a Bach, or a Handel? Of course not! Should a three year old, who does not understand the danger of fire, have an equal right to a box of matches? Of course not! If I, alone, say the sky is red, is my thought equally valid compared with highly trained meteorologists who agree the sky is blue? Of course not!
Spiritually, are my perceptions equal to the prophets, Daniel, or Samuel, or to Jesus Christ, or his Apostles? Of course not! Am I as schooled in Catholic spirituality or theology as an ordained Priest?
Of course not!
The antidote to modern, toxic, thinking is to embrace the virtue of AUTHORITARIAN SUBMISSION. I can surrender my spiritual understanding entirely to my LORD, Jesus Christ, and to the teachings of the Catholic Church. A spirit of AUTHORITARIAN SUBMISSION is critical to conceiving of a KINGDOM of Heaven, or of an omnipotent GOD, or of the LORD, Jesus Christ. This is not “narrow-mindedness.” It is a constructive spirit that builds personal well-being and strength.
The Latin Mass has the virtue of emphasizing the authority of the Priest as CELEBRANT on behalf of the congregation. As an Army Officer might lead his Company in battle, The Priest LEADS the congregation in the celebration of the Eucharist. As the CELEBRANT, the Priest faces the altar, celebrating the Eucharist ON BEHALF OF the congregation. Prayers are offered by the Priest in Latin, and some prayers are even silent. The concern is not with congregational participation directly in the Mass or even that the congregation understand all that is being prayed on their behalf. The congregation TRUSTS that their Priest is using his ecclesial power and authority for their benefit. The Latin Mass better embodies the virtue of authoritarian submission.
The modern, vernacular, Mass developed out of the various Western cultural forces that denigrate and disperse authority. The Church responded to these popular forces with a more “inclusive,” “democratic” liturgy, that deemphasizes ecclesial authority, and to a lesser degree (probably unintentionally) all authority.
Attendees at Latin Masses appear much more conservative in dress and manners compared with the Vernacular Mass. Veils are prominent among women, as are larger families, often with infants. I suspect that more families adhere to Church guidelines on birth control. Family units appear much stronger, with fathers exhibiting appropriate leadership roles.
Hope remains! It has been said that “The last frontier of progressivism is Orthodoxy.” All will come full-circle eventually.
T
translaticius
Guest
Outstanding post! There is so much more to modernism than just the changes to the Mass, which is the effect not the cause.
P
ProVobis
Guest
Along with the centuries of music that was inspired by this beautiful Latin Mass, which still lives on. Bach, Mozart, Palestrina etc.
I find your post extremely ironic.
The first half of your long post is about the need "to embrace the virtue of AUTHORITARIAN SUBMISSION" which I wholeheartedly agree.
But then you go on to disparage the Mass of Saint Pope Paul VI stating very incorrectly, "The modern, vernacular, Mass developed out of the various Western cultural forces that denigrate and disperse authority. The Church responded to these popular forces with a more “inclusive,” “democratic” liturgy, that deemphasizes ecclesial authority, and to a lesser degree (probably unintentionally) all authority.”
The Ordinary Form of our current Mass does not do such things at all. It’s not a more “democratic” liturgy, it does NOT de-emphasize ecclesial authority one bit, let alone all authority. Why you are spreading such falsehood when you just stated that "A spirit of AUTHORITARIAN SUBMISSION is critical to conceiving of a KINGDOM of Heaven, or of an omnipotent GOD, or of the LORD, Jesus Christ” is most puzzling to me.
I would kindly suggest that you practice what your wrote and the in spirit of AUTHORITARIAN SUBMISSION accept that the Mass of Saint Pope Paul VI which was updated in 2011 to its current form is a very sacred and holy Mass worthy of your full support and participation.
Otherwise, your words about authoritarian submission ring extremely hallow.
P
phil3
Guest
I have several time tried to read the Catechism and gave up on it. I have used it for reference, but you could spend a life time trying to make heads or tails of it. I have listen to Catholic scholars that HAVE spent a life time and claim to be experts only to have them disagree on what the document is trying to express.
I believe families will get more out to the Baltimore Catechism than the current one. Not that the Baltimore one is the end all to be all.
You can read any question of the Baltimore Catechism and have a discussion on it at dinner time.
I believe families will get more out to the Baltimore Catechism than the current one. Not that the Baltimore one is the end all to be all.
You can read any question of the Baltimore Catechism and have a discussion on it at dinner time.
P
ProVobis
Guest
Actually it’s the 2002 edition that was updated. The new English translation was enacted in 2011. The older English translation along with its music of Proulx and Peter Jones et al were obsoleted.
G
GodIsPerfection
Guest
Point well made. In my initial draft, I emphasized the need to submit to the authority of Christ AND of the Catholic Church (that includes the Catechism and Magesterium). Somewhere in my drafting, that SINGLE SENTENCE got deleted. So, we do not disagree with each other on the need for unity in the Church. Thanks for your correction.
The Mass of Saint Pope Paul VI is certainly spiritually sufficient, and I attend those Masses frequently and reverently. But, even the Church allows for both the Latin Mass and the Saint Pope Paul Mass, leaving the preferences to the individual and the Diocese. So, this issue is far from an ironclad settlement within the Church, but it is not cause for schism (and should never be), either.
Having served in the military, I understand the concept that all participants in an event (action), need not have a full understanding of everything for the operation to be successful. One cannot imagine every trooper demanding to know the why and wherefore of his officers before proceeding with the mission at hand. Similarly, one need not be fluent in Latin for the Latin Liturgy to be spiritually effective in transubstantiating the bread and wine to the body and blood of Jesus Christ. Logically, it really cannot be maintained that the Mass is any better “if everyone understands it,” either.
The difference in the Masses at this point is aesthetics (a matter of preference), not spiritual (the essence in the Mass of the bodily presence of Jesus Christ).
But, in every profession (medicine, law, clergy) language plays a crucial role in conferring authority and in distinguishing laity from the ordained or credentialed. Physicians speak their language. Lawyers speak their language. In just this way, employment of the vernacular seems to diminish mystery and authority. Maybe the Church should employ the language of the Church.
The Mass of Saint Pope Paul VI is certainly spiritually sufficient, and I attend those Masses frequently and reverently. But, even the Church allows for both the Latin Mass and the Saint Pope Paul Mass, leaving the preferences to the individual and the Diocese. So, this issue is far from an ironclad settlement within the Church, but it is not cause for schism (and should never be), either.
Having served in the military, I understand the concept that all participants in an event (action), need not have a full understanding of everything for the operation to be successful. One cannot imagine every trooper demanding to know the why and wherefore of his officers before proceeding with the mission at hand. Similarly, one need not be fluent in Latin for the Latin Liturgy to be spiritually effective in transubstantiating the bread and wine to the body and blood of Jesus Christ. Logically, it really cannot be maintained that the Mass is any better “if everyone understands it,” either.
The difference in the Masses at this point is aesthetics (a matter of preference), not spiritual (the essence in the Mass of the bodily presence of Jesus Christ).
But, in every profession (medicine, law, clergy) language plays a crucial role in conferring authority and in distinguishing laity from the ordained or credentialed. Physicians speak their language. Lawyers speak their language. In just this way, employment of the vernacular seems to diminish mystery and authority. Maybe the Church should employ the language of the Church.
G
GodIsPerfection
Guest
P.S.:
Reread my initial submission.
Paragraph 4; second sentence.
Reread my initial submission.
Paragraph 4; second sentence.
L
L_Amoneti
Guest
@Alightforalltosee At the end of the day, I’m not sure the particular liturgy is such a big deal. Can you tell us why you believe the Traditional Latin Mass will solve the problem?
L
L_Amoneti
Guest
Thanks for the citation from the Catechism. I’m not sure how it applies to the OP though; can you explain?
Last edited:
- Status