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Alightforalltosee
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There we have it folks
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otjm
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Your implication is that the Mass is the reason for the departure, and that ignores a multitude of issues which actually impact remaining in the Faith, or not.
At the peak of Mass attendance - which was in 1957, weekly Mass attendance was in the high 60% range. That doesn’t explain why better than 30% could not be bothered.
Further, the EF has basically reached stasis at something under 3% of all parishes in the US. And within that are parishes which may have one EF Mass on the weekend, with the majority of people - including young people - attending the OF.
Attendance has been gradually dropping off since that peak in 1957, and the mainline Protestant churches have experienced the same or greater drop off in attendance without any revision to their services - because they didn’t revise them. With parallel drop in attendance - including youth - it has nothing to do with Latin, but rather to other factors, including relativism, secularism, materialism, hedonism and a host of other issues. Correlation is not causation.
At the peak of Mass attendance - which was in 1957, weekly Mass attendance was in the high 60% range. That doesn’t explain why better than 30% could not be bothered.
Further, the EF has basically reached stasis at something under 3% of all parishes in the US. And within that are parishes which may have one EF Mass on the weekend, with the majority of people - including young people - attending the OF.
Attendance has been gradually dropping off since that peak in 1957, and the mainline Protestant churches have experienced the same or greater drop off in attendance without any revision to their services - because they didn’t revise them. With parallel drop in attendance - including youth - it has nothing to do with Latin, but rather to other factors, including relativism, secularism, materialism, hedonism and a host of other issues. Correlation is not causation.
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otjm
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The short answer is “no”. The long answer is that it is a minority of a minority, and trying to get adequate samples with which to perform any valid survey is somewhere between next to impossible and impossible.
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Horton
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I was going to suggest YouCat as a resource for kids. Also look at St Mary’s Press Bibles | Saint Mary's Press. The bible are wonderful and are made for kids. I am the DYM at my parish and all of my high school kids are getting the Catholic Youth Bible instead of workbooks or sheets. Even the teens preparing for Confirmation.
It’s expensive to purchase 100 of those bibles at $30 each but our priest sees the value and increased my budget to do this.
The other side to teaching your children the faith is to truly live your faith. Get involved in a ministry at your parish, pray often, let them see you pray outside of Mass, pray the rosary as a family.
Most of all put faith first. As a youth minister I see families who place sports or other activities ahead of church. I once had a young man ask if he could be confirmed another day because there was a sporting event he wanted to attend on the same day as the Confirmation Mass.
The families I see in my parish with their kids still active as adults are the ones who made faith a priority, who lived their own faith always, who had daily prayer time, who worked at forming their children’s faith.
We can talk different types of Mass, EF or OF, but if the kids are not well formed in the home, none of it matters.
As a DYM I have to say, send them to youth group
It’s expensive to purchase 100 of those bibles at $30 each but our priest sees the value and increased my budget to do this.
The other side to teaching your children the faith is to truly live your faith. Get involved in a ministry at your parish, pray often, let them see you pray outside of Mass, pray the rosary as a family.
Most of all put faith first. As a youth minister I see families who place sports or other activities ahead of church. I once had a young man ask if he could be confirmed another day because there was a sporting event he wanted to attend on the same day as the Confirmation Mass.
The families I see in my parish with their kids still active as adults are the ones who made faith a priority, who lived their own faith always, who had daily prayer time, who worked at forming their children’s faith.
We can talk different types of Mass, EF or OF, but if the kids are not well formed in the home, none of it matters.
As a DYM I have to say, send them to youth group
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otjm
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Do you know if there have been any valid surveys of attendance within those rites? CARA does tremendous work, but their source of doing studies is from one or more bishops - or the USCCB - and so does not delve into the Eastern rites.
po18guy
Well-known member
In “some” cases" the Latin language and that rite of the mass has become almost a magic potion or even superstition. It is exterior when conversion and repentance are interior.
“Some”, I said.
As society and culture degrade, I think that a natural human tendency toward nostalgia arises in our hearts. We cannot reclaim, in wholesale fashion, what has been lost through a simple change in externals. Souls are converted, sinners repent one at a time.
Teaching on the nature and true presence of Christ in the Holy Eucharist - taught with increasing soft-focus in some areas in recent decades, - has blurred the distinction between Christ and man-made religions - even a purer materialism.
The utter easiness (laziness?) of competing denominations is also a great temptation. Add in the increasingly fundamental immorality presented by the world through both culture and the media and we see corrosion of the faith.
Indeed, the sharp rise in materialism and physical comfort lures many away from the denial of self and the taking up of one’s cross.
Having said this, the innate desire for something greater - to know our Creator - remains in the human soul. The world makes sense only when we place ourselves in a correct relationship with God via His Church.
This requires maturity, which can either be taught as one grows - or learned, in prodigal son fashion.
And again, what we are called to do is pray. Universality and unity in prayer. Imagine what a difference that would make.
“Some”, I said.
As society and culture degrade, I think that a natural human tendency toward nostalgia arises in our hearts. We cannot reclaim, in wholesale fashion, what has been lost through a simple change in externals. Souls are converted, sinners repent one at a time.
Teaching on the nature and true presence of Christ in the Holy Eucharist - taught with increasing soft-focus in some areas in recent decades, - has blurred the distinction between Christ and man-made religions - even a purer materialism.
The utter easiness (laziness?) of competing denominations is also a great temptation. Add in the increasingly fundamental immorality presented by the world through both culture and the media and we see corrosion of the faith.
Indeed, the sharp rise in materialism and physical comfort lures many away from the denial of self and the taking up of one’s cross.
Having said this, the innate desire for something greater - to know our Creator - remains in the human soul. The world makes sense only when we place ourselves in a correct relationship with God via His Church.
This requires maturity, which can either be taught as one grows - or learned, in prodigal son fashion.
And again, what we are called to do is pray. Universality and unity in prayer. Imagine what a difference that would make.
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ProVobis
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From the Baltimore Catechism:
Q. 566. Why does the Church use the Latin language instead of the national language of its children?
A. The Church uses the Latin language instead of the national language of its children:
Q. 566. Why does the Church use the Latin language instead of the national language of its children?
A. The Church uses the Latin language instead of the national language of its children:
- To avoid the danger of changing any part of its teaching in using different languages;
- That all its rulers may be perfectly united and understood in their communications;
- To show that the Church is not an institute of any particular nation, but the guide of all nations.
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goout
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Be a radical Christian parent. It’s not enough to merely know the facts. And the Latin Mass is not a cure for indifference. That’s superstition. You as a parent must live a life of radical Christian discipleship.
John Paul 2’s father:
I do that more so now than when they were at home, and with my wife as well.
It is uncomfortable at first. But try praying with some depth with your family. It will be one of the best things you can do for your family.
https://catholicherald.co.uk/commen...-paul-iis-father-is-a-role-model-for-all-men/
George Weigel’s biography has more detail.
John Paul 2’s father:
A man who gets up to pray on his knees in the middle of the night is probably communicating a deep prayer life. Prayer opens the door to the Holy Spirit. If I could do one thing over in our family life, it would be to go beyond our perfunctory bedtime prayers and live the full depth of Christian prayer openly with my children.
I do that more so now than when they were at home, and with my wife as well.
It is uncomfortable at first. But try praying with some depth with your family. It will be one of the best things you can do for your family.
https://catholicherald.co.uk/commen...-paul-iis-father-is-a-role-model-for-all-men/
George Weigel’s biography has more detail.
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PetraG
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From Sacrosanctum concilium
#54. In Masses which are celebrated with the people, a suitable place may be allotted to their mother tongue. This is to apply in the first place to the readings and “the common prayer,” but also, as local conditions may warrant, to those parts which pertain to the people, according to the norm laid down in Art. 36 of this Constitution.
Nevertheless steps should be taken so that the faithful may also be able to say or to sing together in Latin those parts of the Ordinary of the Mass which pertain to them.
And wherever a more extended use of the mother tongue within the Mass appears desirable, the regulation laid down in Art. 40 of this Constitution is to be observed.
[#40. In some places and circumstances, however, an even more radical adaptation of the liturgy is needed, and this entails greater difficulties. Wherefore:
1) The competent territorial ecclesiastical authority mentioned in Art. 22, 2, must, in this matter, carefully and prudently consider which elements from the traditions and culture of individual peoples might appropriately be admitted into divine worship. Adaptations which are judged to be useful or necessary should then be submitted to the Apostolic See, by whose consent they may be introduced.
2) To ensure that adaptations may be made with all the circumspection which they demand, the Apostolic See will grant power to this same territorial ecclesiastical authority to permit and to direct, as the case requires, the necessary preliminary experiments over a determined period of time among certain groups suited for the purpose.
3) Because liturgical laws often involve special difficulties with respect to adaptation, particularly in mission lands, men who are experts in these matters must be employed to formulate them.]
I don’t think every Mass ought to be all in Latin, but I do think the faithful have essentially been robbed of a rudimentary understanding of the Mass in Latin. If people with no knowledge of Spanish can understand Feliz Navidad and people with no knowledge of German can understand Gesundheit, Catholics can surely understand their parts of the Mass if they are used at Sunday Masses with some regularity, alternating with times in which the exact same prayer said in their native language.
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PetraG
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Yes, practice of the faith that extends to the family’s whole identity in the world combined with an explicit understanding of how different Catholic practices are mutually reinforcing and understandable as one inseparable response to the indispensible and immeasurably generous life-giving initiative of God is going to do what once-a-week attendance at a poorly-understood gathering can never do.
As the saying goes among those who jump horses: Throw your heart over the fence, and the horse will follow.
If the children of those who practice the faith occasionally and without much personal investment don’t fall away from even cursory practice of the faith, the grandchildren probably will. (This is when grace does not intervene so that the grandchildren respond to the initiative of God and go on to reclaim their patrimony without their parents. Praise to Heaven when that happens!! Yes, it isn’t uncommon that this involves elements of the faith as it was known to great grandparents or great-great grandparents, which is what explains the attraction of the TLM to me. It feels even more like a reclamation of one’s patrimony.)
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stpurl
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I did say correlation is not causation, and I did not say that there were not other factors. The fact remains that for centuries when there were plenty of other societal problems, issues, etc., and the Mass was in Latin as it had been for centuries, we did not see such an exodus.
Correlation may not be causation, but I find that too many people want to completely dismiss the changes to the Mass out of hand, as if they had absolutely nothing at all to do with anything. That’s plain wrong.
Correlation may not be causation, but I find that too many people want to completely dismiss the changes to the Mass out of hand, as if they had absolutely nothing at all to do with anything. That’s plain wrong.
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ProVobis
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(Post withdrawn; possible copyright infringement)
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EnglishTeacher
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Bushum
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I could not agree with you more. Some people are so invested in the new Mass that they take ANY question of it as almost a personal insult. Any question or dissent must be immediately squashed. That is exactly what happened when the new Mass started.
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otjm
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Your reference is to the use of Language in all documents, not the Mass. Latin is till the official language in which all documents are written.
What I’ve found to be effective in drawing young children to Jesus and Mary are coloring books like this one:Hodos:
Can you recommend good resources for this? You sound passionate about this.
My kids are ages 7-12 thank you.
https://www.amazon.com/Coloring-Book-Mysteries-Rosary-Storybooks/dp/193918200X/
Kids love to color and draw and Catholic-themed coloring books is a great way to draw them into the teachings and traditions of the Church.
For older kids, my best advice is to lead by example and whatever you do, don’t denigrate the Catholic Church and its leaders in front of your children. If your kids sees you criticizing the Catholic Church about anything, they’ll believe that they will also have the right to criticize it and walk away from it if they so choose.
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otjm
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We don’t have to go back centuries to know that society was far, far different in 1960 than it is now almost 60 years later. We didn’t have teenagers, graduating from high school, with an 80% or higher experience in sexual intercourse. We did not have the dumbed down ratings on movies and television; on television, married couples were shown with separate beds. We didn’t have 50 or 55,000,000 abortions. We had no internet; now we have untold numbers of both men and women admitting to addiction to pornography, often started in their teenage years.
One of the “statistics” - nothing more than anecdotal - we hear is how many young people want the EF.
What we don’t hear is how many older people - those who were young adults when the Mass was allowed in the vernacular - want the EF.
And don’t bother me with the retort of “they hate it” because they don’t. But they remember when more than half the congregation"fulfilled their obligation" by sitting, standing and kneeling on cue, meanwhile saying their rosary or reading from a novena pamphlet, or simply being present. And that is not anecdotal as it comes from a study done in the 1950’s by a sociologist who actually attended Masses as part of a research project. Extremely few if any could converse in Latin; missals were expensive and if one sat in the back half of the church one might not even hear the priest speaking the Latin prayers.
There never has been a published peer reviewed polling taken that I can find indicating that anyone quit the Church over the changes in the Mass. I invite you to point one out.
One of the “statistics” - nothing more than anecdotal - we hear is how many young people want the EF.
What we don’t hear is how many older people - those who were young adults when the Mass was allowed in the vernacular - want the EF.
And don’t bother me with the retort of “they hate it” because they don’t. But they remember when more than half the congregation"fulfilled their obligation" by sitting, standing and kneeling on cue, meanwhile saying their rosary or reading from a novena pamphlet, or simply being present. And that is not anecdotal as it comes from a study done in the 1950’s by a sociologist who actually attended Masses as part of a research project. Extremely few if any could converse in Latin; missals were expensive and if one sat in the back half of the church one might not even hear the priest speaking the Latin prayers.
There never has been a published peer reviewed polling taken that I can find indicating that anyone quit the Church over the changes in the Mass. I invite you to point one out.
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otjm
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and while we are at it, you have flat out missed one of the most critical changes - whioch was driven not by the Church but by catechists, after Vatican 2, and that was throwing out the Baltimore Catechism and replacing it with a watered down excuse of “loving Jesus my buddy”. We are now two generations and working on the third with poor to almost non-existent catechesis. When the parent raises a child and the parent does not know their faith, how are they to convey to the child that faith? And then the child gets poor catechesis, and they grow up - and what have they to convey to their child? When that child takes the grandchild and dumps they off at a catechetical class, and then on Sunday, doesn’t take the grandchild to Mass because of soccer, or baseball, or football the grandchild is playing, what is that grandchild being taught?
It has absolutely ;nothing to do with the Mass in English, or the removal of multiple confiteors, or any of the other minor changes made to the Mass. It has to do with the faith of the parent and the grandparent. Catechesis has been improved because the bishops finally got a clue; but the parents and grandparents are CINO.
That, and the multiple of moral issues are the greatest challenges to keeping young adults in the Church.
It has absolutely ;nothing to do with the Mass in English, or the removal of multiple confiteors, or any of the other minor changes made to the Mass. It has to do with the faith of the parent and the grandparent. Catechesis has been improved because the bishops finally got a clue; but the parents and grandparents are CINO.
That, and the multiple of moral issues are the greatest challenges to keeping young adults in the Church.
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PetraG
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How do you know it is just plain wrong? Look at the Orthodox Christians. Did they change their liturgy? No. Do they have a greater or lesser loss in membership than Roman Catholics? They’ve been in kind of the same boat as Roman Catholics.
The other thing to remember, however, is that the factors that drive people into or out of religious observance aren’t static. People in different times and at different junctures of their lives respond to different things. People looking to make a serious commitment respond to different things than people looking for a less-demanding association. There isn’t one single either-or factor that drives all decisions to leave or join a denomination.
There is no reason that all US parishes have to take a one-size-fits-all approach, either. There is room for some flexibility. I don’t think that the TLM ought to be opposed as if it is going to “take over” the Church. That isn’t going to happen. It is very edifying for enough people that it deserves support where there is a demand for it, though.
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Peebo
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I have been Catholic now for 27 years…coming from a Pentecostal church it was all about living a Christian life 24/7…not just during church service…that included…Dad…Mom…and the children…Christ was the center of all their lives…Catholics were so easy to convert because most didn’t have any real concept of what living a Christian life meant…it was mass on Sunday…get it out of the way and you’re good to go for the rest of the week…when I converted an elderly parishioner told me Vatican 2 was the best thing to happen to the church…people didn’t feel threatened with eternal damnation that they went out of fear…or it was just a cultural tradition with no real commitment to Christ in their lives…they were poorly catechized…of course now I have found the beauty and fullness of the Catholic faith…if young people are still leaving in droves then sadly nothing much has changed…on the other hand our parish has schools for both junior and senior students…they are well catechized…our priests play a big role in students lives…the parents play an active role also…this is where it all starts…I have never been to a traditional Latin mass…I understand the liturgy is beautiful…I can only relate to mass in English…it is the presence of Christ…Body …Blood…Soul and divinity that is the center of my faith and that guides me in my everyday life…I can’t see why having a traditional Latin mass would make you a better Christian…it’s faith in Christ that does that…
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