your opinions on gays

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Fitswimmer said:
I have to mention that some of the talk about how sinful even chaste homosexuals are strikes me as a way to make one’s own sinful nature look “less bad”. If I can find someone else’s sin that is “worse” than mine, then my sins must not be that horrible.
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I guess this is “crying wolf”.
When a poster believes that a sexual attraction which is a desire for sexual pleasure with the same sex is morally disordered, that belief has nothing to do with “someone else’s sin is worse than mine”. The poster is simply stating a fact. If the topic should have been “your opinion on criminals”, the poster’s reaction would also focus on criminals without implying that he is thinking that “someone else’s sin is worse than mine”.
 
agangbern said:
I guess this is “crying wolf”.
When a poster believes that a sexual attraction which is a desire for sexual pleasure with the same sex is morally disordered, that belief has nothing to do with “someone else’s sin is worse than mine”. The poster is simply stating a fact. If the topic should have been “your opinion on criminals”, the poster’s reaction would also focus on criminals without implying that he is thinking that “someone else’s sin is worse than mine”.
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You can choose your own opinion but you cannot choose your own facts. The teaching of the Church has been stated here numerous times, along with direct quotes from the Catechism. Yet you maintain that the chaste homosexual is morally disordered. If you want to keep that as an opinion that’s certianly your choice, but it is NOT Church teaching.
 
Fitswimmer said:
You can choose your own opinion but you cannot choose your own facts. The teaching of the Church has been stated here numerous times, along with direct quotes from the Catechism. Yet you maintain that the chaste homosexual is morally disordered. If you want to keep that as an opinion that’s certianly your choice, but it is NOT Church teaching.
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Amen

Amen

Amen:thumbsup:

This is certainly the catholic teaching. Since that is the case those who believe otherwise are NOT following catholic teaching!

Isn’t there a term for those proclaiming to be catholic yet ‘pick and choose’ what catholic teachings to follow?🤷
 
Fitswimmer said:
Originally Posted by agangbern View Post
I guess this is “crying wolf”.
When a poster believes that a sexual attraction which is a desire for sexual pleasure with the same sex is morally disordered, that belief has nothing to do with “someone else’s sin is worse than mine”. The poster is simply stating a fact. If the topic should have been “your opinion on criminals”, the poster’s reaction would also focus on criminals without implying that he is thinking that “someone else’s sin is worse than mine”.

You can choose your own opinion but you cannot choose your own facts. The teaching of the Church has been stated here numerous times, along with direct quotes from the Catechism. Yet you maintain that the chaste homosexual is morally disordered. If you want to keep that as an opinion that’s certianly your choice, but it is NOT Church teaching.
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What does catechism 2351 say? It says “disordered desire for sexual pleasure”. It says that the sexual pleasure is morally disordered when it is " isolated from procreative and unitive purpose". What is the fact? The fact is that sexual pleasure desired by a homosexual is never related to procreative purpose. That, according to catechism 2351, makes it morally disordered.
It is no longer an opinion but a fact categorically stated by catechism 2351.
 
agangbern said:
What does catechism 2351 say? It says “disordered desire for sexual pleasure”. It says that the sexual pleasure is morally disordered when it is " isolated from procreative and unitive purpose". What is the fact? The fact is that sexual pleasure desired by a homosexual is never related to procreative purpose. That, according to catechism 2351, makes it morally disordered.
It is no longer an opinion but a fact categorically stated by catechism 2351.
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Regardless, for something to be a moral disorder it must be a direct action which sexual attraction is not. There is no moral code broken when all there is attraction.
 
agangbern said:
What does catechism 2351 say? It says “disordered desire for sexual pleasure”. It says that the sexual pleasure is morally disordered when it is " isolated from procreative and unitive purpose". What is the fact? The fact is that sexual pleasure desired by a homosexual is never related to procreative purpose. That, according to catechism 2351, makes it morally disordered.
It is no longer an opinion but a fact categorically stated by catechism 2351.
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You have inserted a word into your understanding of the Catechism that is not there. It is causing you confusion. The Catechism states, “Lust is disordered desire for or inordinate enjoyment of sexual pleasure. Sexual pleasure is morally disordered when sought for itself, isolated from its procreative and unitive purposes.” 2351 [emphasis by me.]

In your understanding you have added the word “desired” after “sexual pleasure.” (Highlighted in red in your quote.) You have read into it that the desire is sinful rather than the action. If I, as a chaste married woman, desired to contracept, I have not sinned. If I “sought” contraception, I have acted and therefore sinned.

There is a difference.
 
****2358 ****The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.
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It’s not morally disordered or mentally disordered. The catechism states, unequivocally, that the INCLINATION is objectively disordered, meaning it is not ordered correctly. It does not claim that the PERSON is somehow morally inferior or mentally inferior or spiritually inferior but rather that the inclination is compelling that person to a disordered objective.
 
Dare I say it but the further I get through life despite the ridicule and verbal abuse from everyone around me, the prouder I am. I cast off all the negative influences and love myself exactly as I am because if I didn’t I would be unable to love others.
 
What is not being discussed is the “Gay Agenda.”

This is a counter-family movement. which has “gay adoptions,” and many other reprehensible aims. Teaching alternative lifestyles as healthy in grade schools; gay “marriage” . It is a corruptive movement that will only end up in disaster.
 
Newbie2 said:
If one is in a state of apostasy, they won’t want to go to confession. Former apostetics (is that a real word?), yes, forgivable when they “come back”.
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By “apostetics” do you mean “apostates”?

Apostate: one who commits apostasy
m-w.com/dictionary/apostate

BTW, I am amazed that this thread is still going on after 40 pages. :o
 
Dale_M said:
By “apostetics” do you mean “apostates”?

Apostate: one who commits apostasy
m-w.com/dictionary/apostate

BTW, I am amazed that this thread is still going on after 40 pages. :o
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Ah. That is because we all have our posts per page set high and it really is only 13 or so pages long. Don’t worry, by 40 it will be squashed.😛

Newbie2 was talking to me, and I’m pretty sure he meant apostates. 🙂
 
LittleDeb said:
Originally Posted by agangbern View Post
What does catechism 2351 say? It says “disordered desire for sexual pleasure”. It says that the sexual pleasure is morally disordered when it is " isolated from procreative and unitive purpose". What is the fact? The fact is that sexual pleasure desired by a homosexual is never related to procreative purpose. That, according to catechism 2351, makes it morally disordered.
It is no longer an opinion but a fact categorically stated by catechism 2351.

You have inserted a word into your understanding of the Catechism that is not there. It is causing you confusion. The Catechism states, “Lust is disordered desire for or inordinate enjoyment of sexual pleasure. Sexual pleasure is morally disordered when sought for itself, isolated from its procreative and unitive purposes.” 2351 [emphasis by me.]

In your understanding you have added the word “desired” after “sexual pleasure.” (Highlighted in red in your quote.) You have read into it that the desire is sinful rather than the action. If I, as a chaste married woman, desired to contracept, I have not sinned. If I “sought” contraception, I have acted and therefore sinned.

There is a difference.
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The words “sexual pleasure desired by a homosexual” is not an insertion to catechism 2351. It is a statement of a fact about homosexuals. As explained somewhere here by one poster, same sex attraction could be an attraction for the same sex in the way he/she dresses; or it could be to idolize him/her; etc… That kind of attraction does not make one a homosexual.
But when the attraction is a desire for sexual pleasure with the same sex, then that makes him/her a homosexual. So, that is it.
The question then should be asked: Is that sexual pleasure desired by the homosexual related to procreative and unitive purpose? The answer would be a big NO! It is not related to procreative purpose!
And what does catechism 2351 say about that desire for such kind of sexual pleasure? The catechism says: It is morally disordered.
This is not to say that heterosexuals could not commit a desire for the same kind of sexual pleasure. It just happen that the topic is about “gays” so the focus is upon them.
 
blessedtoo said:
It’s not morally disordered or mentally disordered. The catechism states, unequivocally, that the INCLINATION is objectively disordered, meaning it is not ordered correctly. It does not claim that the PERSON is somehow morally inferior or mentally inferior or spiritually inferior but rather that the inclination is compelling that person to a disordered objective.
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Did the catechism expound on what it referred to as “homosexual inclination?” If by homosexual inclination we mean the desire to imitate the common mannerisms or behavior of the same sex, as in the way he/she dresses; or in idolizing him/her, then certainly they do not make him a homosexual. They are simply homosexual inclination, which obviously are objectively disordered.
But when the inclination is a desire for sexual pleasure with the same sex, then that is a different story. That kind of sexual pleasure desired by them is undeniably isolated from procreative purpose. And being so, according to catechism 2351, is morally disordered.
 
goofyjim said:
Regardless, for something to be a moral disorder it must be a direct action which sexual attraction is not. There is no moral code broken when all there is attraction.
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Did catechism 2351 speak of “direct action”? No. It did not. It simply speaks of two dimensions of lust, namely: a)disordered desire for sexual pleasure, or b) inordinate enjoyment of sexual pleasure.

The first dimension speaks only of desire. It never connotes a direct action. A sexual pleasure which is isolated from procreative and unitive purpose is, according to the second sentence of catechism 2351, morally disordered. That sexual pleasure desired by the homosexual is undeniably one among them.
 
agangbern said:
Did catechism 2351 speak of “direct action”? No. It did not. It simply speaks of two dimensions of lust, namely: a)disordered desire for sexual pleasure, or b) inordinate enjoyment of sexual pleasure.

The first dimension speaks only of desire. It never connotes a direct action. A desire for a sexual pleasure which is isolated from procreative and unitive purpose is, according to the second sentence of catechism 2351, morally disordered.
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Is attraction also a desire? Where do you draw the line as to what is “attraction”? is it to an individual?
 
agangbern said:
Did the catechism expound on what it referred to as “homosexual inclination?” If by homosexual inclination we mean the desire to imitate the common mannerisms or behavior of the same sex, as in the way he/she dresses; or in idolizing him/her, then certainly they do not make him a homosexual. They are simply homosexual inclination, which obviously are objectively disordered.
But when the inclination is a desire for sexual pleasure with the same sex, then that is a different story. That kind of sexual pleasure desired by them is undeniably isolated from procreative purpose. And being so, according to catechism 2351, is morally disordered.
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I don’t understand why you are belaboring these distinctions. Here is what the catechism says in it’s entirety on the issue of homosexuality.
2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,140 tradition has always declared that **"homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."141 They are contrary to the natural law. **They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.
2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition. 2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.
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It seems you are confusing two issues here:
Folks who adopt the mannerisms, style, and behavior of the opposite sex are not homosexually inclined. They may be effeminate (in the case of men) or “butch” (in the case of women). They may even be transvestites if they take it to the extreme. That does not make them inclined toward same sex attraction necessarily.

The Catechism is clear on what it defines as homosexuality. And it does not label it as a moral, mental, or spiritual disorder of the person himself. Same sex inclinations, the draw of one man for another, is objectively disordered.

Father John Harvey defines objective disorder as:
“nothing to do with moral worth or the free will of the person. It is the tendency to homosexual desires and acts, since such desires or acts are instrinsically immoral.”
 
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