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ConstantineTG
Guest
What does one language has to do over it? Many other traditions have no problems with recognizing the Real Presence even though their liturgies are in Greek, Slavonic, Syriac, Malamayam, Copitc, etc.
- Status
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Dan_Daly
Guest
And if you took a liturgy that has traditionaly been celebrated in Greek, and celebrated it in English…it would be different.
Just as Greek, Slavonic, Syriac, Malamayam, Coptic, etc languages are important to those traditions, Latin is important to the Latin tradition.
An argument in favor of Latin in the Latin Rite liturgy is not an argument against the use of other languages in other traditions. Actually, its an argument in their favor. They have held on to more of their traditions. Latin Rite Catholics would do well to follow their examples and hold on our own.
Many Latin Catholics are struck by the incredible beauty of a Byzantine Divine Liturgy. Because it IS beautiful. They can come away thinking, wow, we don’t have anything like that. They are wrong. We do. We’ve simply largely left it behind.
Pax and God Bless.
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ConstantineTG
Guest
No actually. In the Eastern Rites we see the value of delivering a Liturgy that is clearly understood by the faithful, which includes Liturgy in the common language. In fact, you’d be surprised to know that the Byzantine Rite is so quick to be translated and incultured when brought to new lands. Translation and inculturation are the two things that traditionalists dread. But its something that the Byzantine Rite embraces. Really, the battle for Liturgical language in the Eastern parishes has nothing to do with the Latin concept of “sacred language”, but more for ethnic reasons.
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Rahn
Guest
Hit the nail on the head.
But, just to run with that thought a bit, why don’t we believe it? It’s the central tenet of our faith. Is the reason found in John 6:60 “this is a hard saying, who can know it?”, or is it that we do know it, but we’ve become so desentised over the years that it’s just an “ordinary miracle”?
My two daughters made their first Holy Communion back in October, and their belief is strong and fresh, yet even they aren’t always excited about going to Mass. On the other hand, there are many Christian churches that believe in communion but not transubstantion that are packed to the rafters.
I think that’s where great homilies, good music and welcoming community come in. Great homilies are important to me (as is the whole Liturgy of the Word), good music appeals to my kids (especially if it’s songs they know) and my wife is drawn to the community of our church (as are the kids, they love seeing their friends at Mass). Thes things can keep things interesting and help to motivate you to come, but you have to crave the presence of the Lord and be hungry for His Word, and then believe that He is present (physically and in His Word) there at Mass to get you in the door in the first place.
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Dan_Daly
Guest
Oh, I am aware that Byzantines translate their liturgy. I attend an English language, Divine Liturgy regularly. The fact remains, that there are traditions unique to the Byzantine rite, which bring Byzantine Catholics closer to God, and which are different than the traditions of other rites. Latin in the liturgy, is one of the traditions of the Latin Rite.
Pax
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patrick127
Guest
I think it comes down to Heaven and Hell. Death, Judgement, Heaven, Hell…the last 4 things. I know this theme is never spoken of in my parish…never. We have 2 choices of where to spend eternity and it is a taboo topic. Why? The truth of the matter is the Truth is rarely spoken of. The truth of:
- The authority of the Church and its teachings and the obedience required
1 a. The real presence of Christ in the Eucharist - The need for and a results of living a sacramental life
- There is a hell and people do go there
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DJJG
Guest
1. Selfishness
2. Doing what makes me feel good
3. Putting oneself before God
*** Hummmmmm, do I see a pattern?
***
2. Doing what makes me feel good
3. Putting oneself before God
*** Hummmmmm, do I see a pattern?
***
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ElToro
Guest
It would be absurd to suggest the Divine Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom brings Byzantine Catholic closer to God than either the OF or EF brings Latin Rite Catholics to God…
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Cat
Guest
This is an incredibly meaningful analogy! Thank you for sharing it. Excellent! Something that any modern person can understand and relate to.
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Cat
Guest
Yes, I agree with this, too. It goes along with what I’ve been saying in my other posts in this thread–personal sin. That’s what selfishness is.1. Selfishness
2. Doing what makes me feel good
3. Putting oneself before God
*** Hummmmmm, do I see a pattern?
We are all too quick to attribute declining Mass attendance to something that the parish is doing wrong; e.g., poor music, or bad homilies, or not enough Latin or too much Latin or…
Instead, I think that in this day and age (remember, we’re not living pre-Vatican II), the answer is just what DJJG has posted–selfishness, doing what makes us feel good, and putting our own desires first.
It wouldn’t matter if Jesus Himself were at Mass–which He is!
It wouldn’t matter if the music were professionally done and totally correct and traditional (Gregorian chant, pipe organ accompaniment for the hymns, propers instead of hymns, etc.), and the Bishop Sheen or St. Paul himself came back from the dead to give the homily, and the church building was a stunning reproduction of Notre Dame Cathedral, and all the women were wearing long beautiful dresses and had their heads covered with lacy veils and all the men were wearing tuxedos, and all the families had at least six children and all the babies were nursing…
We would still not come to Mass because we are sinful.
Our city HAS a Latin Mass parish where the Mass is much like what I described above–the church building is really beautiful, and the priest is excellent and the music–well, it’s not very good but it’s totally correct (Latin, chant, pipe organ, etc.)
But people don’t go. It’s a very small parish and it isn’t growing. You see, nowaday, restoring “traditions” and “Latin” to Mass and making the Mass utterly reverent is not going to make people come flocking back. People today are so caught up in their sin that they don’t care.
Good post, DJJG.
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ProVobis
Guest
As do mathematicians and computer programmers, unless they want to create a lot of needless work for themselves. Trust me.
Subtitles in movies I can live with. Complete dubbing is dishonest to the integrity of the movie, an opera, a song, liturgy, you name it. If I want to attend a Ukrainian liturgy to better sense a different culture’s worshipping God, the last thing I’d want is to hear it in some translation. It’s just not authentic.
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centurionguard
Guest
Bump!All three add up to as one other poster said Lack of belief in the Real Presence of Jesus in the Holy Eucharist.
Matthew 18 verse 8
Mathew 18 verse 17
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Maryann_C
Guest
Well let me stir the pot!
2.Modern self-centerdness- the ‘what is in it for me’ attitude which results from the lack of chatechisis in teaching people that the mass is participation of worshiping God - it is not all about what I can get out of it. I don’t go to mass to be entertained by music or fed by great preaching.
- The period where Mass was said purely in Latin but the faithful no longer really knew Latin . This is not merely poor catechesis this was the period that allowed the rot to set in , in my mind.
2.Modern self-centerdness- the ‘what is in it for me’ attitude which results from the lack of chatechisis in teaching people that the mass is participation of worshiping God - it is not all about what I can get out of it. I don’t go to mass to be entertained by music or fed by great preaching.
- The fact that confirmation is often just a right of passage- social promotion- rather than a free choice by the individual child which boils down to ….poor chatechisis!
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Seamus_L
Guest
Just one reason. Widespread apostasy in positions of authority.
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ElToro
Guest
I certainly think this created the ticket-punching syndrome that impacts the Mass today. For a huge number, the Mass is something to subject themselves to because they know they have to, because it’s a habit. It’s something to endure. They want it as fast and as short as possible. GET IT DONE!
Just imagine if it was the tradition of Catholics to first go to a short Bible study on Sunday (while the kiddies went to catechism), THEN they went to Mass and then they had a coffee social each Sunday. Instead we have 49 minute Sunday Masses to get people in and out as soon as possible. I DO believe that has driven people away because once again, we are treating the sacred as if it were profane.
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ElToro
Guest
A few? The Archdiocese of Los Angeles (by far the largest Archdiocese in the USA with over 4.5 million members) is comprised of people who are 85% Hispanic which is just great in my mind. But it does show just how just how GIANT of an impact immegration does have on the Church in the USA.
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Cat
Guest
I don’t disagree with the idea that poor catechesis is one reason for drop in Mass attendance.
But I think we have to be careful not to put too much blame on this.
People who want to learn can learn. Same for kids. There are plenty of children and teenagers who live in poor neighborhoods and attend wretched schools and have non-inspiring tachers. But somehow they manage to learn a lot on their own.
Nowadays, anyone who wants to learn about Catholicism (or any faith) can go online and read lots, and find out about resources both old and new. They can hear podcasts and buy CDs and DVDs. They can call people and make appointments–this isn’t the time in history when only Dad drove a car and the rest of the family stayed home and waited for him to drive them anywhere.
Just because a parish doesn’t provided riveting catechesis is not an excuse for being poorly catechized.
When my husband and I were still Protestant, he became interested in the Rosary, and he managed to learn quite a bit about the Rosary by reading books at the library and going online, as well as talking to people he knew who were Catholic.
I think that as sad as it is, many people wouldn’t be interested in learning about Catholicism even if The Lord Himself stood next to them and taught them personally.
But I think we have to be careful not to put too much blame on this.
People who want to learn can learn. Same for kids. There are plenty of children and teenagers who live in poor neighborhoods and attend wretched schools and have non-inspiring tachers. But somehow they manage to learn a lot on their own.
Nowadays, anyone who wants to learn about Catholicism (or any faith) can go online and read lots, and find out about resources both old and new. They can hear podcasts and buy CDs and DVDs. They can call people and make appointments–this isn’t the time in history when only Dad drove a car and the rest of the family stayed home and waited for him to drive them anywhere.
Just because a parish doesn’t provided riveting catechesis is not an excuse for being poorly catechized.
When my husband and I were still Protestant, he became interested in the Rosary, and he managed to learn quite a bit about the Rosary by reading books at the library and going online, as well as talking to people he knew who were Catholic.
I think that as sad as it is, many people wouldn’t be interested in learning about Catholicism even if The Lord Himself stood next to them and taught them personally.
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mark_a
Guest
- Lack of belief in the Catholic teaching about the Eucharist.
- The lack of teaching about Mary.
- The Church teaching about abortion not being hammered into us at mass. Most Catholics couldn’t care less about Catholic.com, EWTN, Catholic radio, etc., etc., where many of us get our information. Ditto about contraception.
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Rudolfo
Guest
I see only one reason:
If the priest is a saint, his people will be holy.
If the priest is holy, his people will be good.
If the priest is good, his people will be fair.
If the priest is fair, his people will be mediocre.
If the priest is mediocre, his people will be bad.
If the priest is a saint, his people will be holy.
If the priest is holy, his people will be good.
If the priest is good, his people will be fair.
If the priest is fair, his people will be mediocre.
If the priest is mediocre, his people will be bad.
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vanlab2005
Guest
Drop in Mass attendance could be the result of :
- Lack of belief in God or the false belief that intelligent people are agnostic
- Belief that God is a “sugar daddy”, someone you think about only when you want something from him
- Sporting events or pornography is more satisfying to some people than having a good relationship with Jesus
- Status